Just good body mechanics?

[Hardwork108]

Here we have a grandmaster of Yi Quan - Yao Zongxun, formal successor of Wang Xiangzhai, creator of Yiquan.

Do we all agree he has good mechanics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeQ76...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOjct...eature=related

Talking of Yi Quan, did you know that we have at least one poster here who says that he has practiced 5 years (if my memory serves me correctly) of EXTERNAL Yi Quan? LOL!

Going back to the video, I believe that a lot of the body mechanics of an internalist cannot be seen by simply observing a video as even those happen at an internal level.

However, on another level one can still see the relaxedness (up to a point) and the flow during the motions, as well as the posture allignments.

[Hendrik]

Its a question to you and other IMA's not a statement...just trying to get the ball rolling...share your specific experience/s

What methods of IMA's do you use/advocate ?
and what are the direct results in terms of using VT ?

I have my own views, but id like to hear yours



DREW

Ok.


TCMA IMA in my understanding is not learn about something but it is a continous details process of transcending/transforming oneself.

It is not doing thing in a different way but it is a continous process of investigation and improvement starting from where one is. It is a journey inward and at each mile stone of the journey one progress to be better then one before.

In this path, mind, physical body, breathing, awareness, and Qi all needs to be investigate and work on since all of these are interelated or a part of reality.

as for the method, nothing is fixed. and often it is like using a boat to cross the river after one cross a particular river the particular boat is abandon because that is no longer needed.

The ultimate goal is to become just "flow". however one needs to have something to starts to work on; to begin one needs to know how to deal with the physical, mind, awareness, and Qi with specific methods and then abandon all these methods so that the method no will not becomes a burden.



As you mention breathing above, there are different breathing training depend on what is the goal set. generally, breathing influence the clarity of mind and the operation of the body. thus, one can train the breathing to calm the mind or increase the potential of the physical body. on the other hand, one also can cultivate the Awareness to let the breathing return to its nature deep breathing state. So, there is no one method fit all. depend on what is one's goal.

However, saying the above doesnt mean one dont have to know the technic or technics of handling breathing for different goals. and those technics needs to be learn and practiced like a tool so that one can use it when needed.

breathing is just another angle looking at the reality called Oneself. from the angle of breathing one will see one's body, one's mind, one's qi, one's awareness in the breathing way. similarly, from the physical body angle one will see one's body, one's mind, one's qi, one's awareness in a different way then viewing them from the breathing angle.....so fort from each different angle....


Thus, oneself is very simple. however, viewing the oneself from different angle such as the breathing angle the physical angle.......etc are complex until finally after familiar with different view and each components , only then oneself becomes simple and with ease. Those are the training.

[Pacman]

Save yourself. Dont' reply!

i wont need to since i just solidly defeated all your points

[Pacman]

The ONLY way to develop that is by familiarity, by fighting. The more you fight, the more you become accustomed to it.

no. one component of "familiarity" as you say is muscle memory. to achieve muscle memory in punching, you do not need to fight with the punch. it would better serve you to punch 1000 times a day in the air. that would build muscle memory faster.

of course to utilize that punch you need to fight.

which is why i have said many times you need lots of things. not just pure fighting.

You believe this "internal" training works NOT FROM EXPERIENCE but from theory, from imagining that's how it should work.

you seem very rational and logical at times...but then many times you throw in things like this and thus your arguments are built like a house of cards.

you dont know this. in fact this is not true. there is no imagination involved only experience.

The speed bag is for conditioning. It's common for fighters to do lots of conditioning exercises since that's what gets their body prepared for the sparring.

i dont see what your arguing here. it seems like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. do you remember your point. you were saying that all this other stuff is bogus. to get better at fighting you need to fight.

yet you just admitted that boxers do non fighting activity A so that they can be better fighters. well im saying that internal martial artists do non fighting activity B so that they can be better fighters

All good fighters, just like all good atheltes, look "relaxed" since by being highly skilled, their bodies have learned when to turn it on and when to turn it off. This is nothing special. Good, athletic training develops that.

not true that all fighters are relaxed...but even if it were true the point, as i have said many times, is that internal MAs can have similar goals as other arts. the difference is in the approach.


there are two arguments here.

1. you are arguing that "internal training" doesnt exist.
2. you are saying that it doesnt work.

well i dont see how you can argue #2 if it doesnt exist but cant fill all your logical holes.

internal training basically covers everything not purely about the physical body. that means basically certain aspects of the mind.

internal training is a category. it does exist. whether you think it works is another thing.

from my experience it works. i have done both. have you done both? it seems like you have not

[Pacman]

Going back to the video, I believe that a lot of the body mechanics of an internalist cannot be seen by simply observing a video as even those happen at an internal level.

this is true. look at sil lum tao. its difficult to understand the applications from observation alone.

[t_niehoff]

no. one component of "familiarity" as you say is muscle memory. to achieve muscle memory in punching, you do not need to fight with the punch. it would better serve you to punch 1000 times a day in the air. that would build muscle memory faster.

of course to utilize that punch you need to fight.

which is why i have said many times you need lots of things. not just pure fighting.

You ae confusing different things. Being able to "relax" in fighting comes from familiarity, from fighting enough that you can "relax" naturally. You can't learn or develop the ability to "relax" while fighting by not fighting.

you seem very rational and logical at times...but then many times you throw in things like this and thus your arguments are built like a house of cards.

you dont know this. in fact this is not true. there is no imagination involved only experience.

I am talking about experience fighting -- going all out, 100% trying to knock each other out, take each otehr down, submit each other, etc., and with competent fighters. So, have you done that? Have you sought out good fighters like MMA or TM people to spar with?

i dont see what your arguing here. it seems like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. do you remember your point. you were saying that all this other stuff is bogus. to get better at fighting you need to fight.

Yes, to get better at fighting you need to fight. But, even more so, the only way to get better at fighting is by fighitng.

yet you just admitted that boxers do non fighting activity A so that they can be better fighters. well im saying that internal martial artists do non fighting activity B so that they can be better fighters

Look at it this way, the only way to become a better bike rider is by riding the bike. OK? You can't get better by not riding the bike. Now, bike riders may stretch, may run or lift weight or do all kinds of things to make their bodies healthier or better conditioned for their sport. OK? But none of that makes their SKILL at riding better -- the skill building comes from practicing the skill itself, from riding the bike. It doesn't come from all those things they do not riding the bike. Those only prepare the way for skill building.

not true that all fighters are relaxed...but even if it were true the point, as i have said many times, is that internal MAs can have similar goals as other arts. the difference is in the approach.

Yes, I know the difference is in approach. And the IMA approach doesn't work.

there are two arguments here.

1. you are arguing that "internal training" doesnt exist.
2. you are saying that it doesnt work.

well i dont see how you can argue #2 if it doesnt exist but cant fill all your logical holes.

I'm saying internal training doesn't work because the whole internal/external view is nonsense. What works is good, athletic training, the stuff all good athletes do. Everything else produces poor results.

internal training basically covers everything not purely about the physical body. that means basically certain aspects of the mind.

internal training is a category. it does exist. whether you think it works is another thing.

from my experience it works. i have done both. have you done both? it seems like you have not

Where are all the good, proven fighters that do internal training? They don't exist. End of argument.

[Pacman]

you sound like a broken record because you don't respond to my points, but rather repeat the same mantras over and over.

i wont repeat the cycle again with all your points but a few things i want to say

I am talking about experience fighting -- going all out, 100% trying to knock each other out, take each otehr down, submit each other, etc., and with competent fighters. So, have you done that? Have you sought out good fighters like MMA or TM people to spar with?

yes. i dont have super secret underground wing chun i mean muay thai i mean wing chun fight club like you but i have.

Where are all the good, proven fighters that do internal training? They don't exist. End of argument.

you mean why arent they in professional MMA fight leagues?

[t_niehoff]

you sound like a broken record because you don't respond to my points, but rather repeat the same mantras over and over.

i wont repeat the cycle again with all your points but a few things i want to say

I repeat the same few things because when you grasp these same few things, you'll see that all your "traditional" views (IMA, etc.) are nonsense.

yes. i dont have super secret underground wing chun i mean muay thai i mean wing chun fight club like you but i have.

Anyone can go crosstrain at a MT shcool or MMA school or try to find some place that has open mats. Anyone -- that is -- who REALLY wants to see whether or not they are fooling themselves. That people don't -- and won't -- do this IMO only underscores that regardless of what they say (on this forum or to themselves) that in their heart, they KNOW what would happen if they did go spar with competent people, and they don't want that confirmed.

BTW, this is nothing new. Hawkins, back when he was with Yip Man, joined a japanese karate school so that he could spar with some trained people. He even earned a BB in karate doing that.

you mean why arent they in professional MMA fight leagues?

I'm saying that there is no evidence that they exist except in people's imagination.

[Pacman]

I repeat the same few things because when you grasp these same few things, you'll see that all your "traditional" views (IMA, etc.) are nonsense.

i see. but in a discussion if you disregard a person's response and keep repeating the same things over and over then you sound a bit unreasonable.

[t_niehoff]

i see. but in a discussion if you disregard a person's response and keep repeating the same things over and over then you sound a bit unreasonable.

What most people -- like you -- keep repeating (in different forms and on different subjects) is the same, their beliefs based on theory, what they believe to be true in their "mind's eye" (fantasy). The answer to this is always the same: trust only the fight. Only believe genuine, proven evidence. That's not unreasonable. That's called being rational.

[Pacman]

What most people -- like you -- keep repeating (in different forms and on different subjects) is the same, their beliefs based on theory, what they believe to be true in their "mind's eye" (fantasy). The answer to this is always the same: trust only the fight. Only believe genuine, proven evidence. That's not unreasonable. That's called being rational.

uhhh well if you actually read and processed what i have been writing i am totally for that and have not done anything contrary to that.

the problem is that for every discussion you repeat the above, even when it doesn't really apply to the topic at hand. you use it as a default response to say the other person isn't thinking and you are.

and btw, "genuine evidence" does not come only from some fight league on TV. your bogus term "functional arts" for boxing, MT, BJJ as well as the pedestal you place them on is not very well thought out

you constantly use the fact that MMA leagues such as UFC are dominated by these arts as evidence of their superiority. as if they were picked by the UFC through natural selection

however you fail to realize that each one of the arts you see, MT, BJJ, and boxing (and to a lesser extent Judo and wrestling), already have well established and extremely competitive leagues of their own prior to the formation of MMA leagues such as UFC. and as a result of this there are a lot of hardcore trainers and fighters out there with a long history of competition.

how many hardcore KF fight leagues do you see? None. In fact, how many KF kwoons do you see that train as hard as your average boxer? Very very few.

this is why you see these arts in the UFC. not because KF training doesnt work, but because there are very few that do it.

So whenever you deride what you have not experienced, real kung fu training, and use its lack of presence in the UFC as evidence that it doesn't work just realize that you are using extremely faulted logic

[t_niehoff]

uhhh well if you actually read and processed what i have been writing i am totally for that and have not done anything contrary to that.

Really? So at what MMA schools or MT schools have you visited to test your theories?

the problem is that for every discussion you repeat the above, even when it doesn't really apply to the topic at hand. you use it as a default response to say the other person isn't thinking and you are.

But it does apply -- WCK is a fighting method. Everything in it can only be evaluated in that light, in terms of fighting. As I have said before, what I hear are people giving their theories or opinions not based on quality experience fighting. I point that out because that is significant -- it means their opinion or view isn't based on good evidence but something else.

and btw, "genuine evidence" does not come only from some fight league on TV. your bogus term "functional arts" for boxing, MT, BJJ as well as the pedestal you place them on is not very well thought out

Good evidence of what works in fighting comes ONLY from trying it with competent fighters. How can anyone measure their fighting performance? To do that, you need to know how good the competition is. It is the same in any sport or athletic activity. That's how you determine how good a boxer you are, how good a wrestler youa re, how good a tennis player you are, etc. Not only that, but if you want to see how good a particular part of your game is, you need to try it against proven, good people. If you are able to stop a takedown from some guy on the street (streetfighter) or one of your students what does that prove? That you were better than some unskilled guy. Does that mean you can make it work against someone who had some skills or attributes? No. However, if you can consistently stop the takedowns of a Div 1 wrestler, then you are good.

you constantly use the fact that MMA leagues such as UFC are dominated by these arts as evidence of their superiority. as if they were picked by the UFC through natural selection

They were. MMA fighters use what works -- what is proven to work. If someone finds a better way, they will adopt it immediately. Why? Because it is a sportand they want to win, they want any advantage. Tai ji isn't a part of MMA for a reason.

however you fail to realize that each one of the arts you see, MT, BJJ, and boxing (and to a lesser extent Judo and wrestling), already have well established and extremely competitive leagues of their own prior to the formation of MMA leagues such as UFC. and as a result of this there are a lot of hardcore trainers and fighters out there with a long history of competition.

I do realize that. And because they took the "sport" route, and used the sport model of training, those arts focus on results (winning the sport). As such, they are driven by results, and so their training has adopted, and continues to evolve, optimal ways of getting those results (training).

how many hardcore KF fight leagues do you see? None. In fact, how many KF kwoons do you see that train as hard as your average boxer? Very very few.

Exactly. And that's why "kung fu" is forthe most part crap. They are not DOING it -- not playing the game (fighting) like the functional (sport) arts are. Their training methods haven't evolved but remain stuck in a very poor model adopted hundreds of years ago by people who really didn't know much about the human body or how to train athletic excellence.

this is why you see these arts in the UFC. not because KF training doesnt work, but because there are very few that do it.

You say KF trianing works but can't show it -- where are any proven fighters that have developed significant skills that have done ONLY traditional training? Not guys that did the silly stuff and then went out and trained MMA. They don't exist.

So whenever you deride what you have not experienced, real kung fu training, and use its lack of presence in the UFC as evidence that it doesn't work just realize that you are using extremely faulted logic

You can keep repeating that traditional training does work but that doesn't make it so. Where is the evidence that it produces good fighters? Just provide that evidence.

There is no doubt that the modern sport-model of training works and produces good results -- you can look at all the functional arts, boxing, MT, BJJ, sambo, etc. and see that for yoruself. You can look at any proven fighters and see that. Why is it we can see that so easily but can't find a single example of a traditionally (only) trained good fighter?

If you can't point to any evidence, then your views aren't based on evidence. If they aren't based on evidence, then they are irrational views.

[Chango]

George St Piere is a traditional martial artist

Also Lyoto Machida is a traditional martial artist! both UFC champs.

[Liddel]

George St Piere is a traditional martial artist

Also Lyoto Machida is a traditional martial artist! both UFC champs.

You can use examples like Cung Lee and Karo as well as others like the above as traditional examples in MMA but its well known in the UFC those individuals had to train MMA to then use it as a base for bringing out thier original styles...

Only then when they had the foundations in MT Boxing and Ground were thier base systems then able to flourish in that platform, cage fighting.

This has been mentioned several times by Joe Rogan in commentary of the last few UFC's and the individuals themselves in IV's.

I personally believe peeps like GSP who began traditional style(s) at a young age like 5 or 6 are the best fighters in UFC and are amazing to watch, but its a bit ambiguous to use them as an example of traditional styles working at that level.

Thats just the state of it and im a staunch VT person so..... But for T to chain punch post about VT's training problems and to look to higher levels etc...take it with a grain of salt.

DREW

[Chango]

I guess I will be off of the X-Mas list for some people! But I firmly believe that everyone must build basic fighting skills stand up and on the ground before they can use a style etc..... I think it's very much like having a general education before moving to a particular speacialty. I don't think it has to be MT. BJJ etc.... But I do believe it's vital that you have atleast a base skill in all ranges. But that's just me