Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

[Sal Canzonieri]

@sal.

Its been a while since I saw the LiuZhenHai videos....

I seem to remember there being a set with lots of xu bu bai fo, rest stance with prayer hands. This is from a different pao quan. Perhaps he has even more than 3 (he has a lot of stuff). I'll take your word on that, I'll try to watch them again soon.

Yes, one of the 6 Pao Quan VCDs does show that, I think it is the Xiao Pao Quan one? I wonder where his Xiao Pao Quan comes from? Or his Zhuo Shou Pao Quan and Ying Zhuo Pao Quan as well?

Ok, so Liu zhen hai is simply the full Pao quan that we are aware of, Tagous books are a good frame of reference. There are always small inconsistencies between forms, SO lets say with Tagou as reference Liuzhen hai does the full Xiao and Da pao quan.

Pretty much. His Pao Quan Yi, Er, and San Lu, we know now is Tagou's Da Pao Quan going into Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan. His Er and San Lu are not exactly the same as Xiao Pao Quan, but really close. I'd like to see them get together and confer these sets.

I don't have access to my encyclopedia, but I do remember looking at the Pao quan in it before and being bewildered (as with many forms in that encyclopedia, no idea where that big luohan quan comes from).

What do you mean here by "encyclopedia"? The Shaolin one or the Tagou one?
The Shaolin one, I have no idea where they got their Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets from?

The Tagou book's Da Luohan Quan is authentic, I have other books with the same set, from Liu Zhenhai lineage, and the set is very similar. As I said elsewhere, if you put the two versions together, you have a complete set, each one is missing one section, but two different ones.

Deyang; I spent time at his school The video of deyang is Da pao quan, same as in tagous books (almost). He doesn't have a xiao pao quan video that I am aware of, but the xiao pao quan they practice in his school is the same as the one we are talking about (2/3, last section omitted as usual). The main difference I remember is that they emphasize the elbows when using hammers, makes it look a bit different.

LFJ answered that one well/

Pao quan is one of those famous forms that every style has a version of. It usually shares the 'explosive' characteristics. If you watch the video above by yongwen he lists many styles of pao quan, it is entirely possible the form coud be of the same style at e'mei. I was at wudang earlier this year and even they have an explosive pao quan, not wudang character at all.

Well, it is well documented that San Huang Pao Chui comes from Emei, AND that there was a Shaolin influence brought into them, hence they share some postures (and Chen Taiji Quan shares the same ones in their Pao Chui set)

As to YongXins little yellow book... I am planning to go to Shaolin next week if i have time. Can't go on the weekend because its too busy (shame, the weather is perfect today). I'll try and pick up all the books while I am there and have a look. I'll let you know if there are any new ones out. 23 postures? Are you sure its not a reiteration of Da pao quan, it can vary quite a lot, the things to look out for is some sort of claw at the begining and a xu bu with 'tiger comes out of cave' like hands in the middle. Plus some strange ma bu footwork, usually a 360 spin, but sometimes just stepping backward several times.

Ah, last night I found a video on the internet of Shi Yongxin's Pao Quan as in his book.
Only it was a horribly mangled modern version of the set in the book. And the video cuts off early, so I can't see the end.
They called it Da Pao Quan in the video! AHHHHH, another Da set!
Wish I could see a nice clean copy of the set. I didn't bother saving a copy it was so bad. But since the set does some very unique movements, I could see that it was indeed the same set, just done with modern wushu body mechanics unfortunately.

[LaterthanNever]

Pao Quen=Leopard Fist?

Are you referring to the Leopard fist or the elusive "Leopard Style" that some claim exists yet which, would seem to be a dead system(with the possible exception of being absorbed in some respects by other styles--such as CLF)?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Pao Quen=Leopard Fist?

Are you referring to the Leopard fist or the elusive "Leopard Style" that some claim exists yet which, would seem to be a dead system(with the possible exception of being absorbed in some respects by other styles--such as CLF)?

Leopard is really Bao Quan, many people pinyin-ize it wrong.
Plus in some dialects P = B and B= P.

No, I am talking about Cannon Boxing. The chinese characters clearly are for Cannon. Shi Yongxin in the book says that he thinks that Pao Quan should stand for Power Boxing, rather than Cannon Boxing.

[RenDaHai]

@Sal
When I say Encyclopedia I mean the 4 book big encyclopedia, not Tagous books. I know the Luohan quan exactly as in Tagous books.

I would have to agree with YOngXin on this one,
I don't think Cannon is a great translation. 'Da Pao' is cannon. But Pao in chinese i literally like saying 'bang' in english. I like to call it 'explosive' fist. Everything explosive uses the character Pao.

Ok, looks like we have cleared a lot up about Pao quan.

The Xiao and Da naming system is too confusing. I think we should either abandon it or only use it in reference to Tagous books (because they are the only ones in English).

SO we have Shaolin temple Pao Quan (wu shan lins, Xiao pao in Tagous books) has 3 roads. Most people only perform 2 of them. THe 3rd is almost a different form which I don't think there are any available videos of ( i have 1 but don't know how to rip it and upload it, can't access you tube anyway). Tagous Xiao pao quan appears to be all 3 put together in one form. Many SHaolin sets have 3 forms.

Next we have Dengfeng Pao quan (Da pao in Tagous books, xiao pao in deyangs videos, Yilu pao in Liuzhenhais videos, also the pao quan in yongxins yellow book apparently). This is a short form with a couple of unique stances and a cool spin into a gong bu punch. It is short and doesn't compare to shaolin pao quan above. My teacher said this is the Pao quan practiced in Dengfengs folk wushu.


So to avoid confusion lets call them Dengfeng Pao quan (short) and SHaolin pao quan (long, 3 roads).

There are other Pao quans but these two are the most important. Liu Zhen Hai clearly has a few others which we don't know much about.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal
When I say Encyclopedia I mean the 4 book big encyclopedia, not Tagous books. I know the Luohan quan exactly as in Tagous books.

I would have to agree with YOngXin on this one,
I don't think Cannon is a great translation. 'Da Pao' is cannon. But Pao in chinese i literally like saying 'bang' in english. I like to call it 'explosive' fist. Everything explosive uses the character Pao.

Ok, looks like we have cleared a lot up about Pao quan.

The Xiao and Da naming system is too confusing. I think we should either abandon it or only use it in reference to Tagous books (because they are the only ones in English).

SO we have Shaolin temple Pao Quan (wu shan lins, Xiao pao in Tagous books) has 3 roads. Most people only perform 2 of them. THe 3rd is almost a different form which I don't think there are any available videos of ( i have 1 but don't know how to rip it and upload it, can't access you tube anyway). Tagous Xiao pao quan appears to be all 3 put together in one form. Many SHaolin sets have 3 forms.

Next we have Dengfeng Pao quan (Da pao in Tagous books, xiao pao in deyangs videos, Yilu pao in Liuzhenhais videos, also the pao quan in yongxins yellow book apparently). This is a short form with a couple of unique stances and a cool spin into a gong bu punch. It is short and doesn't compare to shaolin pao quan above. My teacher said this is the Pao quan practiced in Dengfengs folk wushu.


So to avoid confusion lets call them Dengfeng Pao quan (short) and SHaolin pao quan (long, 3 roads).

There are other Pao quans but these two are the most important. Liu Zhen Hai clearly has a few others which we don't know much about.

Agree with just about everything you said.

Only thing, that Shi Yongxin's Pao Quan book is not the Dapao Quan of Dengfeng.
That one video called it Da Pao Quan, but the routine clearly is not.
It looks like a very old style routine to me, very connected to its Hong Quan roots.
It starts with Tiger Claws for a few postures and then goes into entirely different directions, postures, and movements from all these different Pao Quan sets we have been looking at so far.
I was surprised to find a video that came close to it, Ithink the vidoe is from a Dengfeng area school; but remember that these booklets that Abbot Shi Yongxin is publishing are the results of research he is conducting by having Shaolin monks confer with Henan folk masters and they investigate what the movements in the routines are supposed to me.
In each booklet, a routine is revitalized, it's gone through the wringer and analyzed to got to a definitive version of the set.

Also, he is using the amazing Shi Yan Zhuang as a model for each routine in the series! Seems weird that I am older than Shi Yan by three years.

(By the way, the person doing the classic version of Shaolin Pao Quan that is always in the videos is Shi Yongxin.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

The next set of Shaolin Routines that we should give this treatment should be the Tongbi Quan sets! Now those are pretty mixed up too!

Also, another thing to look into is that there are different lineages at Shaolin doing different sets of routines that are entirely different from other people.

The sets we have talked about so far in threads here of Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Luohan Quan, etc., are all from a common source.
That's one lineage, so to speak.
(Note: from out of this material, plus Wudang Nei Jia Quan's 13 Postures, the styles of Henan Tongbei Quan and Chen & Zhaobao Taiji Quan later developed during the 1600s!)

But, there is another very old lineage of sets that are Xin Yi Quan based. These come from the interaction between Ji Longfeng and later his students visiting Shaolin and there being a feedback loop between the two. Ji learned Tiger and Rooster from Shaolin (and other stuff), in return he taught them 6 Harmony Spear and Boxing that he had picked up from what he learned during his visits to Qianzhi Temple. Ji developed his Shanxi Xin Yi Quan and later his students returned to Shaolin and showed the monks this material.

From out of this interaction came not only the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, the Xin Yi Quan, Xing Quan Walking Boxing), and other related sets, but also the famous Shaolin Qi Xing sets!
This series of sets needs some investigation as well, since they are considered some of Shaolin's oldest routines.

SHI YONG ZHI, b. 1968, 33rd Generation is famous for his demonstrations of Qi Xing Quan - Seven Star Boxing. (I'm older than him too by 8 years, ha)

[LFJ]

The next set of Shaolin Routines that we should give this treatment should be the Tongbi Quan sets! Now those are pretty mixed up too!

agree...

From out of this interaction came not only the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, the Xin Yi Quan, Xing Quan Walking Boxing), and other related sets, but also the famous Shaolin Qi Xing sets!
This series of sets needs some investigation as well, since they are considered some of Shaolin's oldest routines.

SHI YONG ZHI, b. 1968, 33rd Generation is famous for his demonstrations of Qi Xing Quan - Seven Star Boxing. (I'm older than him too by 8 years, ha)

and why are the mizongquan sets called xinyinquan心意拳? i've seen that in a few unrelated sources, years apart.

i started a thread a while back about qixing and changhuxinyimen.
perhaps we could pull that one back up and continue from there.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=51555

[Sal Canzonieri]

agree...



and why are the mizongquan sets called xinyinquan心意拳? i've seen that in a few unrelated sources, years apart.

i started a thread a while back about qixing and changhuxinyimen.
perhaps we could pull that one back up and continue from there.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=51555

okay, cool.

Let's do the Tongbi Quan things first, there is some stuff to clear up about the sets.

After that, we can work on the Qixong and Changhuxinyiman, and the other related sets, that's a lot of stuff to cover and much to say. History goes way back.
I have names now, exact names and so on for when this stuff got into the temple.
It's from an outside influence, Taoist.

Also, Mizong comes from outside Shaolin, it was introduced, I have the whole history in my book covered. But it is a totally separate lineage from Xinyi Quan, they are completely unrelated and from different time periods, and the people that brought them to Shaolin are from two different opposite areas of China.

So, it would be easier to clear up the Tongbei / Tongbi Quan sets first.

[Sal Canzonieri]

One last entry on remaining Pao Quan mysteries:

1. There being a Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu in the Shaolin Encyclopedia that doesn't match anything anywhere else. I spent a few hours today going through all my archives on Shaolin Quan. I found more Shaolin Quan books that showed these same two sets, exactly as shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, no variations. I've never seen any videos that showed these two sets anywhere either. I wonder where these two sets originally came from? I know that Shi De Qian went to many different countries looking for Shaolin lineages that came from Song Shan. I also know that he went through all the hand written copies that were made of Shaolin's rountine books (Quan Pu) that were copied before (obviously) the big fire that burned down the temple. I have one book that has drawings in it that were from the monk that hand copied the books secretly at night (thank god that he did that!) and these two forms are in there.


2. I have a book by Liu Zhenhai (I have many by him) and one of them has three sets in it of Pao Quan, which are labelled Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu Pao Quan!
The book is Shaolin Quan Gun Dao Xie Tao Lu Jing Cui, 1990, isbn 7563901140.

Okay, so I dug them up today and have been comparing them to the videos.

- The Yi Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is exactly his Ying Zhua Pao Quan set, with no changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

- The Er Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a much more detailed version of the Tagou Dao Pao Quan set (which is the Yi Lu set in his videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

- The San Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a full 76 posture set / 139 movements, and is the most complete version I have ever seen of the Xiao Pao Quan set (Tagou), much more detailed and with all the transition movements shown that aren't even in his VCD videos of the set (his Er Lu and San Lu videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

In my opinion, this is the definitive version of the long Pao Quan set, much more complete, smooth, and coherent than the Tagou version or of any videos.

By the way, Liu Zhenhai says that the Eagle Claw Pao Quan set dates back from the Song Dynasty and was created by a monk named Zhao.
Also, he states that the Siezing Hand Pao Quan set comes down from the teachings of high monk Miao Ju.

[RenDaHai]

Ok so,

Liu Zhen hai has Dengfeng pao quan, shaolin si sanlu pao quan (collectively his 1,2,3 sets in his videos).

He also has Ying Zhao pao quan (eagle claw)

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

So he has the most complete Pao Quan.

Went to the Shaolin Temple today.

Got the yellow book by Yongxin with Shi Yan Zhuang performing. ANd I met him in person, check the Luohan quan thread, it was a good day.

THe version he performs in the book is indeed our Deng Feng short Pao quan set. Took me a couple of readthroughs to realise it. He uses Meng hu chu dong while standing on one leg rather than in Xu bu. He does the three steps back ward...twice, he also does the spin into gong bu punch (page 31, act 4...270 degree spin), except he does it standing up so it is hard to tell. This is the best version of Dengfeng Da Pao quan I have seen, but it is definately the same form. SO another mystery cleared up.

We have Dengfeng Da Pao quan, Sanlu shaolin xiao Pao quan, Yingzhao pao quan and qi shou pao quan.


The main shaolin forms seem to be arranged in this way, 1 long sanlu (3 road) form followed by 1 short accompanying form;

Changhuxinyimen (long, 3 sections) Qixing quan (short)
Zhaoyang Quan (long 3 sections) Guanchao quan (short)
Tongbi quan (long 3 sections) Da Tongbi (short)
Pao Quan (long 3 sections) Da Pao quan (short)
Da Hong quan (long 3 sections) Xiao Hong quan (medium)

The above forms (20 distinct taolu, or 10 distinct taolu depending how you look at it) form the essence of shaolin quan. If you know all of the above you have the best of shaolin forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ok so,

Liu Zhen hai has Dengfeng pao quan, shaolin si sanlu pao quan (collectively his 1,2,3 sets in his videos).

He also has Ying Zhao pao quan (eagle claw)

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

So he has the most complete Pao Quan.

Went to the Shaolin Temple today.

Got the yellow book by Yongxin with Shi Yan Zhuang performing. ANd I met him in person, check the Luohan quan thread, it was a good day.

THe version he performs in the book is indeed our Deng Feng short Pao quan set. Took me a couple of readthroughs to realise it. He uses Meng hu chu dong while standing on one leg rather than in Xu bu. He does the three steps back ward...twice, he also does the spin into gong bu punch (page 31, act 4...270 degree spin), except he does it standing up so it is hard to tell. This is the best version of Dengfeng Da Pao quan I have seen, but it is definately the same form. SO another mystery cleared up.

We have Dengfeng Da Pao quan, Sanlu shaolin xiao Pao quan, Yingzhao pao quan and qi shou pao quan.


The main shaolin forms seem to be arranged in this way, 1 long sanlu (3 road) form followed by 1 short accompanying form;

Changhuxinyimen (long, 3 sections) Qixing quan (short)
Zhaoyang Quan (long 3 sections) Guanchao quan (short)
Tongbi quan (long 3 sections) Da Tongbi (short)
Pao Quan (long 3 sections) Da Pao quan (short)
Da Hong quan (long 3 sections) Xiao Hong quan (medium)

The above forms (20 distinct taolu, or 10 distinct taolu depending how you look at it) form the essence of shaolin quan. If you know all of the above you have the best of shaolin forms.

Well, if you know Taizu Chang Quan and the Rou Quan set and the neigong sets (6 harmony, Chan Yuan, and Luohan 13 Gong)
THEN you will know WHY Shaolin is the way it is.

Those other sets give you the externals, but the internals come from Chang Quan and Rou Quan.

[LFJ]

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

提手炮拳 tíshǒupàoquán

tishou means a handle, but can also mean "hand-held" as an adjective, as ti means to lift or carry and shou means hand. so "hand-held cannon boxing".

tishoupao is a common movement name in the paoquan and other hongquan sets. it usually refers to the technique in which the back of the rear hand does an under-strike forward into the opposite palm held low on the inside of the knee in gongbu, usually followed by a jump forward into pubu qiezhang as in the three dahongquan sets.

these are the characters of the set shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

but sal named it "zhuo shou" (seizing hand).

sal,

i think you misread the characters. they are very similar. but zhuo is 捉 and ti is 提. the ti character has an extra horizontal stroke in the box, and under it.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Cool, good answer.

Yes I'm familiar with the move, in my school its referred to as 'Yao Bu'. Its not actually pu bu but a different stance.

You hit the hand foreward, you can use this to hit the opponants groin, or as in 'seizing hand' the hands coming together symbolises capturing the opponants wrist. E.g they grab your wrist, you capture, turn then jump into yao bu.

Where as Pu bu the emphasis is on the straight leg kicking out, in yao bu it slides out so as to enter the opponants 'sphere'. Some people actually do this without pu bu at all, they keep the toes pointed upward but still drop very low.

A lot of schools do this as Pu bu, but recently the more traditional schools I have been frequenting use yao bu. Similar, but an interesting variation. Depending which version of 2 lo 3 lo you use Da hong quan can have this move 6 times!

[Sal Canzonieri]

提手炮拳 tíshǒupàoquán

tishou means a handle, but can also mean "hand-held" as an adjective, as ti means to lift or carry and shou means hand. so "hand-held cannon boxing".

tishoupao is a common movement name in the paoquan and other hongquan sets. it usually refers to the technique in which the back of the rear hand does an under-strike forward into the opposite palm held low on the inside of the knee in gongbu, usually followed by a jump forward into pubu qiezhang as in the three dahongquan sets.

these are the characters of the set shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

but sal named it "zhuo shou" (seizing hand).

sal,

i think you misread the characters. they are very similar. but zhuo is 捉 and ti is 提. the ti character has an extra horizontal stroke in the box, and under it.

Yes, you are entirely correct. I stubbornly keep trying to avoid using my new reading glasses in a feeble attempt to deny I need them.
Yes, after putting on my reading glasses, it is indeed Ti not Zhuo, thanks, much appreciated. I will correct that posting.

[LFJ]

Where as Pu bu the emphasis is on the straight leg kicking out, in yao bu it slides out so as to enter the opponants 'sphere'. Some people actually do this without pu bu at all, they keep the toes pointed upward but still drop very low.

right, or as the video of the old layman practicing dahongquan does it on the heal, with the toes pointing up!

pubu qiezhang just naturally came to mind for the technique, but at master deyang's it is called "jianbu dancha".

箭步 jiànbù as a compound word means "a sudden big stride forward", and separately means "arrow step", which i like to think of as a "shooting in" technique.

what is the character and/or meaning of yaobu?