How to defeat a Wrestler

[anerlich]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

I reckon the ghosts of Helio, Carlos Snr. Carlson and Rolls Gracie, plus Farmer Burns and Karl Gotch would kick YKS, YM's and WSL's a$$es. If Bruce Lee and Andi Hug's Ghosts were still around, It'd be hard to say whose side they'd go on - I'd pick Bruce with the MMA guys and Andi siding with Mas Oyama's ghost for Kyokushin's sake. And Oyama would side with the WC guys.

Get my drift? If not, I'll spell it out:

THIS IS A F***ING STUPID QUESTION!

[anerlich]

OK, that was a bit harsh. Sorry.

The point is, I've never come across a dead guy that could fight for ****. Even against other dead guys.

There may have been better wrestlers and groundfighters in the past. There may have been KF guys that could wipe the floor with all these grandmasters that no one ever heard of as well.

This sort of thing is like "my Dad could lick your Dad."

Whatever answer you got, how will it affect your future training and life in general? Any answer other than "not at all" would be ridiculous.

[Yoshiyahu]

Today's MMA fighters are trained in ground and standup.

If you don't know any ground skills you are absolutely screwed if you end up on the ground. So if the guy knows you completely suck on the ground he's going to do his best to exploit that. He's going to be trying to take you down.

Unless you do some training against partners good at takedowns, how are you going to be prepared for the guy's best strategy? That is CROSSTRAINING.

You want to hero worship two dead guys like they could never be beat?
Anyone can be. Just takes the right strategy and opportunity to use it.

I personally believe it depends on skill. For instance someone who has been training Karate for 20 years an is on mastery level would not easily be defeated by six month MMA fighter who never studied any fighting art previous to MMA.

So with that same analogy. I would say who ever has the most skill wins. So if a WC guy posses alot more skill than a mma guy even if he is fortunate to get the WC guy on the ground it won't last long. Plus on the ground you don't have to play by the grapplers rules. Any Guy of any art who fights ground figthers on a regular basis with out any ground training will be more adapt to defeating ground figthters than someone who 10 years of ground fighting who has never fought any one out side of their style.

The reason why I asked about Wong and Yipman and Yuen Kay San is because they were smaller guys who defeated biger guys even wrestlers.


I still say a more skill striker can defeat a MMA guy. An a MMA guy with more skills can defeat any striker. It depends on what you invest in. If you invest more time into kicking than all your defenses and attacks will be based on kicking. An you will study all the ends and outs of kicking. So you can perfect your art. And not many people will be able to defeat you as long as you can kick. Now you can say alls you have to do is control their legs or trap them. But someone who practices kicks has perfected keeping their distance and being able to defend against being jammed or trapped so they can kick. In other words if you fight the end inside the skilled kicker will counter by either kicking close or gaining distance.

I reckon the ghosts of Helio, Carlos Snr. Carlson and Rolls Gracie, plus Farmer Burns and Karl Gotch would kick YKS, YM's and WSL's a$$es. If Bruce Lee and Andi Hug's Ghosts were still around, It'd be hard to say whose side they'd go on - I'd pick Bruce with the MMA guys and Andi siding with Mas Oyama's ghost for Kyokushin's sake. And Oyama would side with the WC guys.

Get my drift? If not, I'll spell it out:

THIS IS A F***ING STUPID QUESTION!

I take you disagree with my question??? heh?

Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

[Kansuke]

I still say a more skill striker can defeat a MMA guy.

You realize striking is part of MMA, right?

[Yoshiyahu]

You realize striking is part of MMA, right?

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing. So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet. Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.


If you take a kick boxer who spends most of his training time punching and kicking a heavy bag,punching a wall bag filled with steel shots and Hitting a makiwara board.

First year he strikes 80lb bag
Second year he strikes a 100lb bag
Third year he strikes 200lb bag
Foruth year he strikes a 300lb bag
and Fifth year he strikes a 400 lb bag
(An he can move the 400lb bag with each strike)

This guy;s punches from the ground are still going to be devasting. Imagine him opening up chain punchs or performing a Chin Na technique on a grappling arm trying to fight for the dominant posisition. Besides no matter how skilled you are in groundfighting you won't be able to defeat every untrained fighter.

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt. Do you think your ten or eleven year old son will be able to submit Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques. They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing. If they have the correct conditioning and power to adminster damage upon contact. These guys to best of my ability have no ground skills. But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!




Even his strikes

[Edmund]

I personally believe it depends on skill. For instance someone who has been training Karate for 20 years an is on mastery level would not easily be defeated by six month MMA fighter who never studied any fighting art previous to MMA.

So with that same analogy. I would say who ever has the most skill wins. So if a WC guy posses alot more skill than a mma guy even if he is fortunate to get the WC guy on the ground it won't last long.

You wrote in your question WC vs *skilled* ground fighter?

Now you want a hypothetical 20 year karate guy vs a 6 month MMA guy.

Frankly if you need bust your ass for 20 years to beat some guy who trained 6 months of MMA, I think you could have spent your time a bit better. How doing about 7 months of MMA yourself instead of 20 years of karate?

What if you run into a 1 year MMA guy? You're dead meat?

Or if you haven't hit the 20 year mark before you get in a fight vs the 6 month guy?

Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

Now it's Tom Wong versus an *average* ground fighter and Tom Wong's been doing WC for more than 20 years!

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

They do plenty of it.

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt.

Yeah. 2 years after he gets his commercial pilot license.
Hopefully he can hand in the PhD thesis before he starts training. I don't want him splitting his time on both.

They don't give them to kids.

But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!

WTF?
Did anyone say a MMA guy beats a band of pirates or a godzilla or something?

Look if you want to do a couple of decades of pure WC to avoid losing to a 6 month MMA guy, that's up to you.

[Kansuke]

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. [/QUOTE]

So the guy who focuses on one thing will be at an advantage over the guy who focuses on that and other things? How does that make sense?

Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing.

Who says that is a dominant position?

So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet.

The guy who has fewer, if any, grappling skills will be able to dictate what happens in the grappling range? That makes a lot of sense.

Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.

Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques.

How the hell do you know that? If those guys know nothing about grappling they will be fish on the ground.

They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing.

You also don't know that. In fact, I'd bet all those guys have exchanged punches with folks in their time but probably don't have much in the way of any grappling experience.

I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!

Unless you've got some weapons and some training with them, you are very likely out of luck in any case with multiple attackers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing. So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet. Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.

Many MMA come from specialized Striking backgrounds: MT, Kyokushin, Kickboxing.
Silva and GSP have SOME striking skills

If you take a kick boxer who spends most of his training time punching and kicking a heavy bag,punching a wall bag filled with steel shots and Hitting a makiwara board.

First year he strikes 80lb bag
Second year he strikes a 100lb bag
Third year he strikes 200lb bag
Foruth year he strikes a 300lb bag
and Fifth year he strikes a 400 lb bag
(An he can move the 400lb bag with each strike)

Dude...seriously...what are you talking about?

This guy;s punches from the ground are still going to be devasting. Imagine him opening up chain punchs or performing a Chin Na technique on a grappling arm trying to fight for the dominant posisition. Besides no matter how skilled you are in groundfighting you won't be able to defeat every untrained fighter.

His punches will be as devastating as they can be IF he has trained them that way, standing punching ans ground punching are not and never have been the same thing.

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt. Do you think your ten or eleven year old son will be able to submit Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques. They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing. If they have the correct conditioning and power to adminster damage upon contact. These guys to best of my ability have no ground skills. But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

Size matters LESS in grappling than it does in striking.
It still matters, a GREAT DEAL, anyone that has ever fought full contact with no weight limits knows this.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!

The chances of you going to the ground VS multilple attackers is HIGHER than VS just one.

[mjw]

Has your neck become weak?

No, I still bridge up in warm ups but just wouldn' do it in combat....

[Yoshiyahu]

If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting. In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks. if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power. Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you. In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold. If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one. Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters. An you got a BJJ or MMA guy who does some amateurish bouts and trains 3 to 4 times a week. He can still be defeated by strickly WC guy who knows nothing about the ground. Especially if the WC guy perfected not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters. But never learning the ground game.

You wrote in your question WC vs *skilled* ground fighter?

Now you want a hypothetical 20 year karate guy vs a 6 month MMA guy.

Frankly if you need bust your ass for 20 years to beat some guy who trained 6 months of MMA, I think you could have spent your time a bit better. How doing about 7 months of MMA yourself instead of 20 years of karate?

What if you run into a 1 year MMA guy? You're dead meat?

Or if you haven't hit the 20 year mark before you get in a fight vs the 6 month guy?




Now it's Tom Wong versus an *average* ground fighter and Tom Wong's been doing WC for more than 20 years!




They do plenty of it.




Yeah. 2 years after he gets his commercial pilot license.
Hopefully he can hand in the PhD thesis before he starts training. I don't want him splitting his time on both.

They don't give them to kids.





WTF?
Did anyone say a MMA guy beats a band of pirates or a godzilla or something?

Look if you want to do a couple of decades of pure WC to avoid losing to a 6 month MMA guy, that's up to you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting. In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks. if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power. Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you. In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold. If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one. Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters. An you got a BJJ or MMA guy who does some amateurish bouts and trains 3 to 4 times a week. He can still be defeated by strickly WC guy who knows nothing about the ground. Especially if the WC guy perfected not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters. But never learning the ground game.

You really need to stop with the "what ifs" and focus on real training, much of that stuff you wrote is all wrong.

[m1k3]

I think the biggest thing that strikers need to understand is that a grappler is more comfortable in their world than they are in theirs.

While it is true there are no punches and kicks in grappling there is pushing, shoving, attempts at head control, fighting for hand and grip control, accidental forearms to the face, pokes in the eye and all sorts of other stuff that happens when you are trying to set up a take down. Hands, forearms and elbows flying around your head are not unusual.

Whereas the striker, once he is off his feet, is in uncharted territory and usually is very uncomfortable being there.

Ask any grappler the panic you feel as a noob when someone takes you down and establishes side control or mount on you, you feel like you are being crushed and you have no clue what to do. Most newbies immediately go into spaz mode and run out of gas very very quickly and a submission is never far behind.

Even if the striker isn't taken down cleanly he has no idea with how to do a scramble or even regain his feet. Grapplers practice standing back up in quick and efficient manner, how many strikers do that.

So, a reasonable scenario is a striker is caught in a takedown attempt, partially blocks it and keeps his separation as both players hit the floor. Before he can even finish standing up the grappler is slamming into him again with his next takedown attempt.

The bottom line is that it is easier for a grappler to bring you into his world that it is for you to keep the fight standing.

A great BJJ saying is "I am a shark, the ground is my ocean and most people can't even swim"

[anerlich]

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt.

Very few if any BJJ schools will award a black belt before the age of 18. I dont think even Rickson Gracie was an exception.

I could be argued that this is child abuse, but since none of the situations you obsess about are ever going to happen, we can let that go.

take you disagree with my question??? heh?

You can only disagree with statements, not questions. You can form opinions as to whether the questioner has a mental age greater than eight, is on drugs or both. In your case my answers would be "no" and "yes" respectively as far as that question is concerned.

Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

Well, Tom's obviously going to figfht better than all those dead guys you mentioned so he's probably a better choice as WC poster boy.

It's hard to throw groundfighters (they are already on the ground).

You seem to be desperate to find someone who's going to agree with what you dearly hope to be true, viz. a Wing Chun guy will always win, that you're doing the right thing by not cross-training, etc.

("Come on. You guys can see I'm right, can't you? I'll just keep asking the same question 100 different ways, and eventually you'll all support my desires. Won't you? Please? Huh?")

Give it up. It's not going to happen. Luck, sutuation and individual attributes always have a major impact on these things.

You really need to stop with the "what ifs" and focus on real training, much of that stuff you wrote is all wrong.

Exactly.

[anerlich]

*Sigh*

If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting.

THe bleeding obvious. Congrats.

In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks.

Can you throw high powerful kicks?

if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power.

The only unconiditioned skilled fighters are those who are skilled in and participate in internet "what if" matches. Do you have stamina or raw power?

Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you.

Can you slam hard body kicks?

In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold.

If you are getting beat on the inside, the other guy is better at fighting there than you are. YOU will be the one taken down. Better to get back to long range or better yet run away.

If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one.

People have been choked out at the Kodokan for over 100 years without a single fatality. Punch KO's (major head trauma) are far more dangerous and result in death far more often. I can think of two instances in local news this year so far. You are compeltely clueless as far as this goes.

Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

You may appear in court if you hit the guy as well. You don't put any violent criminal in a temporary submission hold or let him tap out. It's not a match, it's a crime.

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me.

Go to a BJJ school and try this. Please. Make sure your medical insurance is up to date. BTW, it's "upa" and its a classical grappling move.

Rear mount is superior to regular mount. Congrats for making one sensible assertion in a sea of misinformation.

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters.

Is this WC guy you? Can't be. You spend too much time posting cluelessly on KFO instead of training for one thing.

Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

I guess that's one way of describing it

How old are you?

[Kansuke]

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

.............