Barrack and Hillary

[Lucas]

The president is generally ALWAYS looked upon fondly by active duty troops.

Thats part of the training...and the job.

You dont want low moral, that will get you messed up. You have to have faith in your leader...even if he is a bit...off..

[David Jamieson]

Bush is very popular with the troops. says who? he may be popular with some troops, but I honestly don't think you can make this blanket statement with any accuracy whatsoever.

Another space cadet who says WE are the terrorists. one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. To some, you ARE terrorists in your unprovoked unilaterally declared war on Iraq. Most of the world doesn't have a beef with the afghanistan mission because it has a good foundation and cause. Iraq is a gaff of the highest order

Do we hijack planes? Use women and mentally disabled people as suicide bombers? Behead journalists? The USA transfers prisoners to countries that allow you to torture them in the middle of the night (rendition flights) and then have politicians deny it, then retract their denial and then a POTUS who goes silent on the issue when the denials are retracted. You've bombed many innocent people to death who had nothing to do with 9/11 or any of the war on terror. America is one of the leading arms dealers in the world and has contributed through these ends to genocides in Africa (along with other countries of course, but hey, USA exports small arms to civil war countries and dictatorships which are the real weapons of mass destruction). There are still arguments about the beheading of Daniel Berg and whether or not that was a CIA hoax due to th very American ways of the executioners. I know that's gonna hit a sore spot, but it's true, there is still people with eyes on this. And yes, America uses woman in the CIA and it's armed forces to kill people and sometimes they are innocent as mentioned. the most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war. Iraq is not a Just war. It's not even a just cause.

Looks like Jimmy Carter has no problem hanging out with terrorists though. Well at least he's stepping up and trying to find peaceful resolutions to problems instead of just hating and throwing more war in that direction. that's more than can be said of Bush.

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9...

[1bad65]

The president is generally ALWAYS looked upon fondly by active duty troops.

Not Bill Clinton.

Many commissioned officers resigned rather than serve under him.

[1bad65]

David, if you believe even 1/10th of your rant you are hopeless.

I'll only touch one point, even though I'm sure it's a waste of time.

The Iraq war was sanctioned by the UN. Saddam violated the terms he agreed to in the 1991 UN cease-fire. According to the UN the war is legal. What part of this are you having trouble understanding?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not Bill Clinton.

Many commissioned officers resigned rather than serve under him.

Interesting.
I can say this, and this has very little to do with Bill, that after the US led Nato peac keeping in the Balkans, the US military was at its highest popularity.
Then came Jorge Shruberee.

[MasterKiller]

Not Bill Clinton.

Many commissioned officers resigned rather than serve under him.

So being a h0m0phobe is somehow commendable?

According to the Army, soldiers are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980, with the number of Army deserters this year showing an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.

...

According to the Army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in fiscal year 2007, which ended Sept. 30, compared to nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared to 3,301 last year.

[1bad65]

Interesting.
I can say this, and this has very little to do with Bill, that after the US led Nato peac keeping in the Balkans, the US military was at its highest popularity.
Then came Jorge Shruberee.

Popular with who? Surely not the troops. I remember when 3 of our soldiers were captured over there. Clinton called them 'illegal detainees', which in effect was stripping them of their rights a POWs. He had to rush out and correct himself. Only someone who loathes the military would do something so stupid. I'm sure that really sent his popularity with the troops soaring.

Also, 'suicides' were extremely common in our military in Haiti. Not one soldier was killed by enemy fire, but there was a very large number of 'suicides'....

[1bad65]

Desertion ALWAYS goes up when there is a war going on! During Vietnam desertion rates were always higher than before the war no matter who the President was.

[1bad65]

So being a h0m0phobe is somehow commendable?

Those that resigned did it before he was inaugurated. They simply refused to serve under someone who stated that they loathed the military.

This was obviously well before his 'dont ask, dont tell' disaster of a policy.

[MasterKiller]

This was obviously well before his 'dont ask, dont tell' disaster of a policy.

So you think gay men shouldn't be allowed to protect and serve their country?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Popular with who? Surely not the troops. I remember when 3 of our soldiers were captured over there. Clinton called them 'illegal detainees', which in effect was stripping them of their rights a POWs. He had to rush out and correct himself. Only someone who loathes the military would do something so stupid. I'm sure that really sent his popularity with the troops soaring.

Also, 'suicides' were extremely common in our military in Haiti. Not one soldier was killed by enemy fire, but there was a very large number of 'suicides'....

The US Military was "popular", not Bubba.

Haiti = vodoo majic mon !

[1bad65]

So you think gay men shouldn't be allowed to protect and serve their country?

To be honest, no.

And it's because I have never heard a soldier say they want gays to be let in. I feel those in the military know whats best for them. If those serving say it's a bad idea, who are we to say we have to force our own beliefs on them?

Telling someone how to do their job is usally a pretty bad idea. Take this example: I remember back when the debate about taking weight rooms and cable TV out of prisons was starting. People were outraged. They were all for taking everything away from the convicts. Hell, I was too. Then I saw the corrections officers talking about it. They were against the idea of removing the weights and cable. When asked why they said that those were used as rewards for good behavior and as ways to keep violence down in the prison by providing outlets for the prisoners. I changed my mind. Who are we to tell someone else how to their job when we have NO EXPERIENCE in his job?

[MasterKiller]

To be honest, no.

And it's because I have never heard a soldier say they want gays to be let in. I feel those in the military know whats best for them. If those serving say it's a bad idea, who are we to say we have to force our own beliefs on them?

Telling someone how to do their job is usally a pretty bad idea. Take this example: I remember back when the debate about taking weight rooms and cable TV out of prisons was starting. People were outraged. They were all for taking everything away from the convicts. Hell, I was too. Then I saw the corrections officers talking about it. They were against the idea of removing the weights and cable. When asked why they said that those were used as rewards for good behavior and as ways to keep violence down in the prison by providing outlets for the prisoners. I changed my mind. Who are we to tell someone else how to their job when we have NO EXPERIENCE in his job?

I guess having that pesky constitution around bothers you Neo-Cons, too...

[BoulderDawg]

I wouldn't say a screw loose. there was a lot of emotionalism going on when the recruiting offices were rushed after 9/11 with young guys and gals who wanted to get revenge, make a difference, feeling that they were awakened and wanting to make change etc etc.

So the intentions were good. But you know what is paved with good intention right?

Anyway, the people who did sign up found themselves doing a rethink and then many found themselves stuck in the veiled draft of the stop loss clause when they signed up and perhaps forgot to read thoroughly or whatever, but now they are stuck there.

Ultimately I have to live with myself. I'm personally responsible for the decisions I make. I've screwed up many times and have paid the price for doing so. Even if I had gotten caught up in the 9/11 mania and joined up it doesn't apply to what's going on today. My personal value systems would not allow me to take a part in Bush's war. If it came down to it I would sit in jail before I would go to Iraq.

[David Jamieson]

David, if you believe even 1/10th of your rant you are hopeless.

I'll only touch one point, even though I'm sure it's a waste of time.

The Iraq war was sanctioned by the UN. Saddam violated the terms he agreed to in the 1991 UN cease-fire. According to the UN the war is legal. What part of this are you having trouble understanding?

you call me hopeless without any refutation of what I said?

come on. You have to do the refutation part if you are going to call someone hopeless.

step up, prove me wrong in what I am asserting in my post.

the Iraq war was never sanctioned by teh UN. Afghanistan mission? yes. Iraq? NO.

the UN security council never voted or gave their blessing to the UK and the USA in their attack. Iraq was under sanction for 12 years and severely weakened. Almost to a country, the UN voted for continued inspections. It was only the US and the UK that diminished the UN and went in anyway, WITHOUT blessings. But as USA and UK are permanent members of the security council, they essentially vetoed themselves into the aggression on Iraq.

You still believe they're connected with 9/11 despite all the reports to the contrary? You still buying that?

I'll tell you right now that Pakistan has more Alquaeda camps than Iraq ever had and I would be willing to wager that Al Quaeda's gotten more training in the USA than in Iraq ever.

If you can show me the document that says "we approve" of this frmo teh UN. then I will have to agree. But you can't show me anything to that effect and you never will be able to.

the unilateral aggression was NOT sanctioned, it was vetoed into effect. there's a difference.