Alan Orr Questions 4 - Chain Punching

[k gledhill]

Are you? I am sure you can drill you way to enlightenment.

... moving a hand backwards to my forehead to deal with a hand coming forwards to hit my head.....Nope, I dont do that. But I will try your way with an open mind and respond with my research results.

[Wayfaring]

I live and breath it daily wank*r

Dreaming of having PB's love child? Yes. We know.

[k gledhill]

Coming from the guy whose solution is "a half extended biu sau". That's much better than bong or tan, right?

These threads are certainly seperating out the fighters from the fantasy boys.

And guys with no clue about VT.

[Vajramusti]

Coming from the guy whose solution is "a half extended biu sau". That's much better than bong or tan, right?

These threads are certainly seperating out the fighters from the fantasy boys.

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WC 2377 is correct from a wing chun perspective. While a wu is adjustable.. an adjusted
biu would be better at a forehead level.

Fighting? Wing chun is not the only way to fight. But wing chun does have it's own structure and dynamics,

There are good, bad, and middling wc folks but wc is not MT or MMA.


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

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WC 2377 is correct from a wing chun perspective. While a wu is adjustable.. an adjusted
biu would be better at a forehead level.

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

[k gledhill]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

Clueless...when did telepathy become part of your wc ?

[Frost]

Yes I think you say the same thing each time I post. We disagree, we already know that. that's no problem. If you are going to keep asking me the same thing then you really need to answer my same question. Post your sparring and give us examples.

lol priceless cheers for the laugh but we all know kevin doesnt care enough to post clips of himself in action ...but he does seem to care enough to tell everyone else what they are doing is wrong

[Vajramusti]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

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We just have different perspectives and opinions. I do practice and apply from a well known Ip man lineage perspective. And my biu sao works just fine- not just in theory.An empirical question.
The elbow in biu is properly aligned structurally. Work on it a lot to insure that it among other dynamics is properly aligned.

I am interested in other forms of martial activity but I do wing chun. I don't always agree with Kevin but he does wing chun-though he now is often on his own PB sales pitch...his business.

Alan's last shot of his student or partner in red trunks is a fine example of ring fighting/kick boxing with some wing chun alignment.

Again, wing chun is not the only possible system but on a wing chun forum I try to just discussing wing chun..

It's interesting to me that except for the general forum- the wing chun forum gets the most hits of any other forum.


No sarcasm intended.
joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

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We just have different perspectives and opinions. I do practice and apply from a well known Ip man lineage perspective. And my biu sao works just fine- not just in theory.An empirical question.
The elbow in biu is properly aligned structurally. Work on it a lot to insure that it among other dynamics is properly aligned.

I am interested in other forms of martial activity but I do wing chun. I don't always agree with Kevin but he does wing chun-though he now is often on his own PB sales pitch...his business.

Alan's last shot of his student or partner in red trunks is a fine example of ring fighting/kick boxing with some wing chun alignment.

Again, wing chun is not the only possible system but on a wing chun forum I try to just discussing wing chun..

It's interesting to me that except for the general forum- the wing chun forum gets the most hits of any other forum.


No sarcasm intended.
joy chaudhuri

Business ?? Um how did you like my last DVD series Joy ? Which clip of me doing something did you like
exactly

[k gledhill]

lol priceless cheers for the laugh but we all know kevin doesnt care enough to post clips of himself in action ...but he does seem to care enough to tell everyone else what they are doing is wrong

We all know Frost hasn't got a clue about VT, so its pointless showing him anyway

[k gledhill]

I am the fat guy doing my secret KJG Wing Chun in this fight ,can you see my VT skills ?

CLIP

[Vajramusti]

Business ?? Um how did you like my last DVD series Joy ? Which clip of me doing something did you like
exactly

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Good grief:Business in the context of my post= your prerogative-no hidden meaning.

joy

[WC1277]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

I know this isn't a beloved sparring video of yours but it shows many good examples of how "our" structure is or can be applied including the short extended biu sau. It's long, many good parts, a few ok parts, but none the less, if you watch carefully, you'll see that our hands almost always stay center and our bodies turn them....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

[JPinAZ]

Wrong. Jong sau (outer hand) - wu sau - with structure (inner hand) elbows on the nipple line protects your upper gate.

If something gets past your wu hand covering with a hand connected to your head is simply the most practical option to protect yourself without giving up space.

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

Dave

I'd agree with you on your above assessments of wu sau from a WC perspective. When you say it is 'inner gate', I would agree. If talking inner/outter gate, our wu sau comes online because someone has passed our jong sau, which is something covered by our 2-line concepts.
But I would also further add that, for me, being 'inner gate' is pointing more to it being tool used for defending entry 'into the box'. When in this close range and facing where su sau is applicable, we are being forced to use wrist energy, as our 'kiu sau range' and ability to use 6 gate leverage has been passed. And,as you point out, in the case of wu sau to defend the box, our elbow will need the necessary alignment to support the structure (along with the fwd wrist energy)

Now, looking at Alan's demonstration of 'wu sau' with his hand covering head action, I would say no, that is not wu sau from our above descriptions. His box has already been entered, his elbow is raised (so no hip connection) and no fwd wrist energy is being employed because in reality he's pulling he had back and it's collapsing to his forehead.
Yes, this is an acceptable basic defensive covering tool he is using because his control of space and timing has been compramised to the point it's his best/last option, but it's not wu sau.

Let me note before Alan jumps all over me - I am not saying that what he is doing won't work - it can in this case. And yes, I realize this is a demo. An no, I am I saying Alan and his guys can't fight or don't train hard - their record speaks for itself.
But IMO, it's still not wu sau, at least not from any definition I've ever heard, or any application I've ever seen. If he argues it is, then I would further guess his definition of what WC is probably far from how most of the people here define it. And that's fine too if it works for him, but I can also understand why a lot of people have a difficult time 'seeing' a lot of WC in what he does, especially if he calls this hand on head covering action wu sau...

[Chadderz]

I know this isn't a beloved sparring video of yours but it shows many good examples of how "our" structure is or can be applied including the short extended biu sau. It's long, many good parts, a few ok parts, but none the less, if you watch carefully, you'll see that our hands almost always stay center and our bodies turn them....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

But the idea is to break free from drills like chi sao, and start getting it to work in sparring and real life