Nice clip

[JPinAZ]

Ok. Thanks for your input.

That was you in the clip doing the bong laap hop partner dance for a minute and a half??
Very 'interesting' to see this clip of the guy that puts down and criticizes just about every non-WSL person on this forum...

[wingchunIan]

That's like saying boxing sucks when the wrestler takes him down, lol...

Only we aren't boxing. Boxing is designed for fighting against other boxers so it is fine if their footwork only works in that scenario (it actually works well elsewhere but that is a separate point) in fact their footwork has been honed through evolution in that sporting context against other boxers over many years. Is the Wing Chun that you practise a sport designed for use only against other Wing Chun folks?
IMHO practising Wing Chun so that it looks brilliant against other Wing Chun folks is rather pointless, even more so when the second party is clearly significantly inferior in skill level.
I also maintain that going backwards in straight lines is a very very bad idea unless of course you are fencing or fighting on a balance beam or tightrope

[LoneTiger108]

What differentiates good and great in this case?

It's no secret that I am not a fan of the type of shuffling going on in both clips, because fme this type of training is for interactive and distance/timing purposes where both players fuse together to improve themselves, so in that respect I prefer Grahams clip to the bullying, over powering Sifu and his student

If I am brutally honest, I don't think I have seen a clip anywhere online that would justify the 'great' label! But I do continue to live in hope... I mean somebody somewhere out there must know a thing or two about our legwork and kicks that work in unison with all this flashy handwork??!!

I know it exists, but have still to see much evidence online.

[Graham H]

That was you in the clip doing the bong laap hop partner dance for a minute and a half??
Very 'interesting' to see this clip of the guy that puts down and criticizes just about every non-WSL person on this forum...

Do I really? Thank you. I hope you have a nice day today.

[sihing]

Only we aren't boxing. Boxing is designed for fighting against other boxers so it is fine if their footwork only works in that scenario (it actually works well elsewhere but that is a separate point) in fact their footwork has been honed through evolution in that sporting context against other boxers over many years. Is the Wing Chun that you practise a sport designed for use only against other Wing Chun folks?
IMHO practising Wing Chun so that it looks brilliant against other Wing Chun folks is rather pointless, even more so when the second party is clearly significantly inferior in skill level.
I also maintain that going backwards in straight lines is a very very bad idea unless of course you are fencing or fighting on a balance beam or tightrope

Boxing is designed to teach someone how to punch, hard and fast, from a variety of angles, not to fight other boxers, because a boxer is capable of KO'g any other fighter, wrestler, kicker, whatever, so the tool development is what it does, the application of it and how well one can apply it is set to many variables, how well he knows his boxing science, how good the other guy is at his skill set, toughness, intent, environmental concerns and it goes on and on. You just have to look at the skill set, not a pretend outcome vs some fighter.

My VT is a development tool, it develops a whole bunch of things, not going to write it all out here. It can be used vs anyone, whether it works or not is set to the variable I described above, and no one here or anywhere can predict what will happen in a fight, you train in something to help you become more effective, that's all you can do, even doing that doesn't guarantee anything.

There's a time a place for everything, going back straight maybe work at the right time and place, or going back at angles same thing, nothing is absolutely going to work right as it looks on a piece of paper in theory mode.

J

[guy b.]

Sure,

I don’t have an issue with anything at all and hope very much that I’m not coming off that way. That is not my intentions to do so, and yes, I’m talking about the clip you put up.

When I’d mention that his ‘Joi Yin Chi Sao’ or following what goes/shadowing his opponent's movements would be a lot better if he works more with the idea of 'Lat Sao Chi Sao' attacking straight away from the Mon Sao.

I’m talking about him asking more with ‘Chen Chor Ma’ (bracing defensively), which will make his opponent walk right into his strikes rather than forcing them out, and will give him even more control of his opponent’s fighting lines without bringing his shoulders up and finding more control of his situation with less movements.

‘Say i moon’ attacking positions/areas that are already guarded which have no openings (more at the end of the clip) because of his adjustment problems dealing with his upper extremities.

I was again talking about if he worked more on ‘Haan kiu’ or walking the bridge would help him a great deal because it would also take away the idea of head hunting and making his striking percentage even more higher, and while bringing out the element of counterattacking.

Take care,

So in a nutshell you are saying that he needs to attack without winding up, he needs to brace defensively (rather than what, be mobile?), he needs to punch the guy rather than missing or hitting arms (this sounds like a criticism that could apply to anyone), and he needs to hit to the body more?

[guy b.]

It's no secret that I am not a fan of the type of shuffling going on in both clips, because fme this type of training is for interactive and distance/timing purposes where both players fuse together to improve themselves, so in that respect I prefer Grahams clip to the bullying, over powering Sifu and his student

If I am brutally honest, I don't think I have seen a clip anywhere online that would justify the 'great' label! But I do continue to live in hope... I mean somebody somewhere out there must know a thing or two about our legwork and kicks that work in unison with all this flashy handwork??!!

I know it exists, but have still to see much evidence online.

You would be happier if they lifted their feet higher and placed them more?

As to cooperative/interactive training, isn't this a gor sau clip? Cooperation of the type you are talking about is done in other types of training I would say

[wingchunIan]

You would be happier if they lifted their feet higher and placed them more?

As to cooperative/interactive training, isn't this a gor sau clip? Cooperation of the type you are talking about is done in other types of training I would say

If the clip was supposed to be gor sao then my previous comments about straight lines apply x100.

[wingchunIan]

Boxing is designed to teach someone how to punch, hard and fast, from a variety of angles, not to fight other boxers, because a boxer is capable of KO'g any other fighter, wrestler, kicker, whatever, so the tool development is what it does, the application of it and how well one can apply it is set to many variables, how well he knows his boxing science, how good the other guy is at his skill set, toughness, intent, environmental concerns and it goes on and on.

errrm - no. People may train boxing with an intention to use it for a variety of purposes or to fight against a variety of styles and for the record I agree that it works exceptionally well for many protaganists. I also agree that it teaches people to hit hard and fast as well as how to avoid and defend punches (NB defence is an important part of boxing and it is not simply learning how to hit hard and fast) however boxing has evolved over many years, it has evolved with the purpose of fighting and beating other boxers by fighting within the rule set of a boxing match and it will continue to do so because it is a sport with millions upon millions of pounds invested every year.
Can a boxer fight successfully in the street / outside of boxing rules? sure and in such circumstances the level of success depends upon many things including the individual's experience of perceiving and responding to attacks and movement that are alien to boxing (which they do not teach in boxing gyms - why because boxing is designed to fight against boxing), however the success or otherwise of an individual does not alter the fact that boxing as a system is designed to fight other boxers

You just have to look at the skill set, not a pretend outcome vs some fighter.

lol, you are the only one imagining pretend outcomes. I refer you to your post where you introduced the subject of a boxer being taken down by a wrestler........

[Ali. R]

So in a nutshell you are saying that he needs to attack without winding up, he needs to brace defensively (rather than what, be mobile?), he needs to punch the guy rather than missing or hitting arms (this sounds like a criticism that could apply to anyone), and he needs to hit to the body more?

What I’m saying is, he doesn’t need to do anything new against that particular practitioner, but against someone that’s more experienced than the one his playing with, he will run into trouble and his endeavors will not be as promising. Because anyone with a trained eye knows what I’m saying (not saying you don’t).

Again,,, unless he knows about those things in which I’ve mentioned and choose not to put them on a clip.

Take care,

[sihing]

errrm - no. People may train boxing with an intention to use it for a variety of purposes or to fight against a variety of styles and for the record I agree that it works exceptionally well for many protaganists. I also agree that it teaches people to hit hard and fast as well as how to avoid and defend punches (NB defence is an important part of boxing and it is not simply learning how to hit hard and fast) however boxing has evolved over many years, it has evolved with the purpose of fighting and beating other boxers by fighting within the rule set of a boxing match and it will continue to do so because it is a sport with millions upon millions of pounds invested every year.
Can a boxer fight successfully in the street / outside of boxing rules? sure and in such circumstances the level of success depends upon many things including the individual's experience of perceiving and responding to attacks and movement that are alien to boxing (which they do not teach in boxing gyms - why because boxing is designed to fight against boxing), however the success or otherwise of an individual does not alter the fact that boxing as a system is designed to fight other boxers
lol, you are the only one imagining pretend outcomes. I refer you to your post where you introduced the subject of a boxer being taken down by a wrestler........

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I didn't make up an imaginary scenario, I just used an analogy to your critique of using Toi Ma in the way it was demo'd in the clip. You saying doing it like that is wrong is like saying boxing doesn't work if a boxer is taken down by a wrestler, it's all relative and not possible to deduct on paper or a forum like this, anything can work at anytime, we just train in something to increase our odds of success in a fight and to enjoy the process of training/learning/coaching, nothing is ever guaranteed 100%.

J

[wingchunIan]

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I didn't make up an imaginary scenario, I just used an analogy to your critique of using Toi Ma in the way it was demo'd in the clip. You saying doing it like that is wrong is like saying boxing doesn't work if a boxer is taken down by a wrestler, it's all relative and not possible to deduct on paper or a forum like this, anything can work at anytime, we just train in something to increase our odds of success in a fight and to enjoy the process of training/learning/coaching, nothing is ever guaranteed 100%.

J

Either you're too dumb or too stubborn to see you're talking nonsense, whichever it is I can't be bothered wasting any more time going round in circles with you.

[BPWT]

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I think Ian is saying that boxing (modern, competition-based boxing) is designed, well, for competition-rules boxing. Of course, a boxer when attacked by, say, a BJJ specialist, will do what he can to win (and maybe is successful), but the boxer would be seriously out of his comfort zone because he doesn't train for that type of encounter.

Ask a pro boxer how many hours a week he trains; then ask him what percentage of that training is dedicated to dealing with single leg takedowns. The boxer trains to fight with certain rules in mind. The BBJ guy plays with a slightly different set of rules, rules that don't apply to a boxing bout (boxing, obviously, has rules for a stand-up game using punches - rules that prohibit a ground game).

In that sense, while both fighters fight to win, their definition of a win (or rather how you win), in a competitive setting, is at odds. That training, naturally, will carry over to, say, a fight outside of a ring/off the mats.

Or think about a Judoka who has trained for years to develop his competition game - and think of him applying his competition-defined art against a Silat player holding a machete. Both, if they use their arts the way they have been taught for the purpose they train for, have a very different understanding of what "winning" means.

Different arts = different games.

[sihing]

I think Ian is saying that boxing (modern, competition-based boxing) is designed, well, for competition-rules boxing. Of course, a boxer when attacked by, say, a BJJ specialist, will do what he can to win (and maybe is successful), but the boxer would be seriously out of his comfort zone because he doesn't train for that type of encounter.

Ask a pro boxer how many hours a week he trains; then ask him what percentage of that training is dedicated to dealing with single leg takedowns. The boxer trains to fight with certain rules in mind. The BBJ guy plays with a slightly different set of rules, rules that don't apply to a boxing bout (boxing, obviously, has rules for a stand-up game using punches - rules that prohibit a ground game).

In that sense, while both fighters fight to win, their definition of a win (or rather how you win), in a competitive setting, is at odds. That training, naturally, will carry over to, say, a fight outside of a ring/off the mats.

Or think about a Judoka who has trained for years to develop his competition game - and think of him applying his competition-defined art against a Silat player holding a machete. Both, if they use their arts the way they have been taught for the purpose they train for, have a very different understanding of what "winning" means.

Different arts = different games.

Yes, all you said is true, in a sense. But it's an exclusive approach if all you think Boxing is used for it to fight another Boxer. In the sporting ring, yes that is the correct way to look at it, but that's only one way to see it. All one would need to do is train the boxer vs some wrestlers so he can develop a takedown defence and then you would have an effective boxer in MMA. If he never meets a wrestler he won't know what to do effectively to defeat him, other than KO'g him quickly. Give him some time in with wrestlers and you have an even more effective overall fighter, not just someone limited to fighting other boxers.

When I look at methods I don't look at application, how they are going to use it vs any specific fighter, boxing can work against anyone if he is trained right, not just against other boxers, that's a limited POV in my book.

James

[guy b.]

If the clip was supposed to be gor sao then my previous comments about straight lines apply x100.

This comment?

the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

Isn't gor sau supposed to be a learning experience, especially if there is a disparity in abilities?