Just good body mechanics?

[LSWCTN1]

I guess I will be off of the X-Mas list for some people! But I firmly believe that everyone must build basic fighting skills stand up and on the ground before they can use a style etc..... I think it's very much like having a general education before moving to a particular speacialty. I don't think it has to be MT. BJJ etc.... But I do believe it's vital that you have atleast a base skill in all ranges. But that's just me

i see where you are coming from, but how do you develop those base skills in the first place?

even TN agrees that you learn up to a certain point then go on to utilise those skills by fighting/sparring

could make a good discussion...

[Chango]

I personally believe that you should be sparring from day one! Of course controlled at first. To be honest I feel at the least 80% of your time should be spent in application! Maybe that comes from my wrestling and boxing back ground. Your learning begins on the mat with a resisting partner where you realize your limitations etc.. right away! I know some may argue that it will take forever to get through "the system". My point of view on that is if you can't use it your really don't have "the system" in the 1st place.

Of course this is more of a training culture and method issue. These can vary from school to school.

[t_niehoff]

George St Piere is a traditional martial artist

Also Lyoto Machida is a traditional martial artist! both UFC champs.

You have used as examples two guys that BEGAN with TMAs, but then began training in functional ways and practicing functional martial arts (BJJ, wrestling, MMA, etc.). It's not the TMAs that made these guys good -- it is the modern, sport-oriented training that made them good. They wouldn't be successful without that modern training. However, there are lots of fighters who never did any TMAs and are great fighters.

Once again, it is HOW you train that develops skill.

[Chango]

T,

I think you are missing the point. Also who's to say that it was the sport fighting that made them good! I do agree the sport fighting method is vital in playing the MMA game. From your logic the only good fighting is MMA! I have to say I disagree with you on that point!


However until we see them actually fight I guess we don't really know if they will fight like a competitor or with the TMA. My guess will be a mix of the two. I can only give you examples from my own experiences. Before I was able to understand about mechanics etc... I could hit and kick really hard. My ground game has always been there. However I was not able to refine what I did until I was involved with a TMA. It taught me how to look for what is important.

I think a arguement can be made that those guys that I mentioned have a very clean and effective approach to their fighting. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that this comes from their traditional back ground.

Please allow me to say this a good fighter is a good fighter. It's more about the person and not his/her MA.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Georges St. Pierre and Lyoto Machida are interesting and inspirational fighters for guys like us, I would think, because they both have demonstrated that a strong traditional background that's really brought up-to-date and pressure tested...as well as being crosstrained/mixed with other arts...

can pay huge dividends.

[Wayfaring]

You have used as examples two guys that BEGAN with TMAs, but then began training in functional ways and practicing functional martial arts (BJJ, wrestling, MMA, etc.). It's not the TMAs that made these guys good -- it is the modern, sport-oriented training that made them good. They wouldn't be successful without that modern training. However, there are lots of fighters who never did any TMAs and are great fighters.

Once again, it is HOW you train that develops skill.

Here's another guy who is an example of this:

http://www.mmatko.com/royce-gracie-v...kung-fu-fight/

He's posted on this board before I think. Jason DeLucia lost a Gracie challenge when they were doing that - and it reformed his views on classical TMA training. He went on to fight in the early UFC's and had a pretty successful MMA career. But he did change the way he trained due to his experience.

[Liddel]

It's not the TMAs that made these guys good -- it is the modern, sport-oriented training that made them good. They wouldn't be successful without that modern training. However, there are lots of fighters who never did any TMAs and are great fighters.

I would go far as to say that IMHO once they had made thier training more functional and gained more experience (because Kung Lee did San Shou and GSP entered tourneys early early on) they utlise more tools / better timing and smoother movement than other good fighters that dont have a TMA background.

I generalise i know, but over time you can see the trend IMO.

Getting back to Body mechanics in a Wing Chun sence, functional training is a must but the real issue lies in the styles method of applying body mechanics.

And Wing CHun IMHO has a use of body mechanics so different to everyday body behaviour its method has to be taken into consideration when learning its body mechanics.

Example.

Put a newbie with no fighting experience in a ring on day one and say just do what feels natural, Go BANG.... 9 times out of ten IME you would see the individual perform lets say anywhere between 35 - 45% the same body mechanics of boxing.
Body unity, power lines weight dist etc etc would all be off and require tweaking / perfecting but the base would be there because Boxings mechanics are more simlilar to everyday body behaviour...its closer to a natural state of behaviour than WC's mechanics.
(opinions will vary on the % sure.)

Not everyone would behave the same but more would be similar than not IME.

Now Wing Chun is far from this. Your everyday natural body behaviour would rarely find anything similar to Bong Sau, Tan Sau huen sau... perhaps ones natural behaviour when picking up heavy objects is to keep the elbows in but even thats a stretch and would be unique if just thrown in a ring.

And its for this very reason i believe that what would be the traditional aspects of Wing Chun - the drills and especially the forms are a must - to introduce different habbits shapes and actions that essentially are teaching you foreign actions to become habbit....
Its my opinion through the experience of teaching people in VT (as an assistant) that without the forms and drills prior to more functional training like sparring then fighting and/or compitition etc you cant truely make the habbit actions of Wing Chun your own fighting habbits... people revert to the original basic bahaviour which is why so many are said to "look like KB" etc.

And this is where the lines can blur....

On the other side - the problem that arises with whats considered "fantasy training" is riding on the back of these wing chun specific factors, the fact that the type of person thats attracted to Wing Chun is generally not the natural fighter who wants to bang from day one, they generally are attrackted to boxing or KB...and also that people get stuck in drills and forms and dont complement that with functional application of the skills that are being trained to become habbit because they dont have the inclination to fight...thier more the intelectual hobbiest.
There are a myriad of reasons that muddy the waters of the Traditional training method because there is more room for error...without proper time in a style and quality of instruction.

So the long short of it is IME for a person to become good with VT mechanics they really do need the forms to introduce the unique mechanics, drills to marry that to timing and more dynamic spontaneous behaviour and then sparring / fighting or basic compitition to elevate its functionality -

Without all these elements combined the house of cards becomes less and less stable. its a simple fact.Its a balance IME.

But to say you dont need the forms or drills to make it functional is a farce IMO akin to discounting the importance of good hard sparring etc.

Hope i got my point across.

DREW

[Chango]

I should have been clear. These basic skills should be shown as sort of a general Ed approach. Of course drills can be introduced but again live real energy must be 1st priority. I don't mean that it has to be full power etc... all of the time. However a challenge should be present once the student develops.



I must say that I'm really enjoying this discussion. I may not agree with everyone but I see everyone's logic!! I can really take something from this type of thread!

[Liddel]

live real energy must be 1st priority. I don't mean that it has to be full power etc... all of the time. However a challenge should be present once the student develops.

This is one of my pet peeves about alot of the Lop Sau, Gor Sau platform drills out there...

I only spent a few months on co operative repetitive drills like Chi Sau and Poon sau. After that you were introduced to larger resistance new actions and it became spontaneous and un co operative... so it became a very introductory sparring platform IMO.

People have then offered the opinion your engaging in a drill with rules and its still un realistic and while im not trying to say it's fighting, if one person chooses to dis engage or try an action outside of the particular 'ruleset' for lack of a better word we punch/trade which makes it still somewhat realistic, especially if resistance spontenaeity(sp?) and intent to catch the body are present.

To many Chunners remain in the co operative repetitive stage of drills etc which adds more fantasy and takes away from functionality even more so than not adding sparring to the mix.

Its easy to see those people as they try to complicate the drill perhaps using several actions before catching the target when a Pak Da would have been the ticket...theres thousands of examples.

If you know what i mean...

DREW

[sihing]

I would go far as to say that IMHO once they had made thier training more functional and gained more experience (because Kung Lee did San Shou and GSP entered tourneys early early on) they utlise more tools / better timing and smoother movement than other good fighters that dont have a TMA background.

I generalise i know, but over time you can see the trend IMO.

Getting back to Body mechanics in a Wing Chun sence, functional training is a must but the real issue lies in the styles method of applying body mechanics.

And Wing CHun IMHO has a use of body mechanics so different to everyday body behaviour its method has to be taken into consideration when learning its body mechanics.

Example.

Put a newbie with no fighting experience in a ring on day one and say just do what feels natural, Go BANG.... 9 times out of ten IME you would see the individual perform lets say anywhere between 35 - 45% the same body mechanics of boxing.
Body unity, power lines weight dist etc etc would all be off and require tweaking / perfecting but the base would be there because Boxings mechanics are more simlilar to everyday body behaviour...its closer to a natural state of behaviour than WC's mechanics.
(opinions will vary on the % sure.)

Not everyone would behave the same but more would be similar than not IME.

Now Wing Chun is far from this. Your everyday natural body behaviour would rarely find anything similar to Bong Sau, Tan Sau huen sau... perhaps ones natural behaviour when picking up heavy objects is to keep the elbows in but even thats a stretch and would be unique if just thrown in a ring.

And its for this very reason i believe that what would be the traditional aspects of Wing Chun - the drills and especially the forms are a must - to introduce different habbits shapes and actions that essentially are teaching you foreign actions to become habbit....
Its my opinion through the experience of teaching people in VT (as an assistant) that without the forms and drills prior to more functional training like sparring then fighting and/or compitition etc you cant truely make the habbit actions of Wing Chun your own fighting habbits... people revert to the original basic bahaviour which is why so many are said to "look like KB" etc.

And this is where the lines can blur....

On the other side - the problem that arises with whats considered "fantasy training" is riding on the back of these wing chun specific factors, the fact that the type of person thats attracted to Wing Chun is generally not the natural fighter who wants to bang from day one, they generally are attrackted to boxing or KB...and also that people get stuck in drills and forms and dont complement that with functional application of the skills that are being trained to become habbit because they dont have the inclination to fight...thier more the intelectual hobbiest.
There are a myriad of reasons that muddy the waters of the Traditional training method because there is more room for error...without proper time in a style and quality of instruction.

So the long short of it is IME for a person to become good with VT mechanics they really do need the forms to introduce the unique mechanics, drills to marry that to timing and more dynamic spontaneous behaviour and then sparring / fighting or basic compitition to elevate its functionality -

Without all these elements combined the house of cards becomes less and less stable. its a simple fact.Its a balance IME.

But to say you dont need the forms or drills to make it functional is a farce IMO akin to discounting the importance of good hard sparring etc.

Hope i got my point across.

DREW

Excellent post Drew, very well put

James

[Pacman]

Exactly. And that's why "kung fu" is forthe most part crap. They are not DOING it -- not playing the game (fighting) like the functional (sport) arts are.

you are wrong. you are making a bad generalization based on a presumably poor experience.

you must have had a POS teacher and thus a POS experience, but dont label all KF as crap because of that.

KF training can be functional. even if there is not a public fight league

there are KF kwoons that have not been commercialized and are not run by know nothing sifus and are still "DOING IT". they have some different fighting and training philosophies than some of the other fighting arts these days but they still train real applications and still spar and fight.

KF was not always about fun for the kids at the local community center...being taught by some hippy with a pony tail who learned crap in the 60s.

you talk about the sport model and the motivation to win and how that shapes training. well back before guns came about, KF was life and death. KF was about power. that was a great motivator. thats why people paid tons of money to learn it. thats why KF has a tradition of only being known by the very wealthy (yip man and yuen kay san and others). this motivation shaped training methods to be functional.

there are still kwoons that train for fighting, but it is rare. that doesnt mean that KF is crap.

just because there is no KF fight league that doesnt mean KF is crap. Judo is a subset of jiujitsu and was made into a sport way before there were jiujitsu leagues. with your logic, back then you would say that jiujitsu training was crap and judo was the cat's meow because judo was a sport and jiujitsu was not.

They were. MMA fighters use what works -- what is proven to work. If someone finds a better way, they will adopt it immediately. Why? Because it is a sportand they want to win, they want any advantage. Tai ji isn't a part of MMA for a reason.

if you read and understoood what i wrote about the availability of competent trainers in KF you wouldn't make this argument. its faulty logic. you are ignoring a large variable.

[Pacman]

Put a newbie with no fighting experience in a ring on day one and say just do what feels natural, Go BANG.... 9 times out of ten IME you would see the individual perform lets say anywhere between 35 - 45% the same body mechanics of boxing
...
...
...

And its for this very reason i believe that what would be the traditional aspects of Wing Chun - the drills and especially the forms are a must - to introduce different habbits shapes and actions that essentially are teaching you foreign actions to become habbit....

this is a VERY VERY intelligent post.

without the high repetition drills and practice to give you the muscle memory and relaxation to make WC natural (things terrence thinks are useless fantasy) in a live situation almost 100% will do the natural non WC thing.

this is why we get people like terrence ignorantly saying that WC is not going to look like WC in a real fight or that there is only one set of fighting movements that "everyone" will use

this is why, despite all terrence's eloquence and some insightful remarks i know that he does not know much about anything regarding wing chun.

the reason that many schools stick to the drills and dont go into the fighting that much is because the sifu does not know how to fight himself...but he wants to teach for some reason.

and because there is no competition he isnt ousted as a fraud. back then you would have other schools challenging you for business. this free market would weed out the phonies.

these days they have leagues and competitions to do that. unfortuantely there is no KF fight league.

[t_niehoff]

you are wrong. you are making a bad generalization based on a presumably poor experience.

you must have had a POS teacher and thus a POS experience, but dont label all KF as crap because of that.

KF training can be functional. even if there is not a public fight league

there are KF kwoons that have not been commercialized and are not run by know nothing sifus and are still "DOING IT". they have some different fighting and training philosophies than some of the other fighting arts these days but they still train real applications and still spar and fight.

KF was not always about fun for the kids at the local community center...being taught by some hippy with a pony tail who learned crap in the 60s.

You keep SAYING that traditional KF training can produce good fighters, yet you haven't been able to produce any EVIDENCE that this is true. Where are these good fighters that tradtitional training has produced? Where?

you talk about the sport model and the motivation to win and how that shapes training. well back before guns came about, KF was life and death. KF was about power. that was a great motivator. thats why people paid tons of money to learn it. thats why KF has a tradition of only being known by the very wealthy (yip man and yuen kay san and others). this motivation shaped training methods to be functional.

That's all nonsense, it is a fable, a fantasy -- "back when KF was life or death." There's no doubt that in the past people trained to fight. But they were limited by their experience and understanding of how we learn and develop athletic skill. They were limited by their education, by their lack of genuine knowledge, by their customs, by their legends, by their cosmology, etc. They were limited by geography, by the level of opponents they faced, etc. They did the best they could with what they knew -- they just didn't know much compared to what we know today. That's why athletes are doing things unimaginable in even the recent past.

there are still kwoons that train for fighting, but it is rare. that doesnt mean that KF is crap.

Pay attention. I am not saying "kung fu" is crap -- I'm saying that how it is taught and trained is crap. The traditional way of teaching and training TMAs is a very poor way to learn and develop athletic skill. If you tried to teach a functional art, like boxingfor example, the way a TMA is taught and trained, you wouldn't get good results either.

How do we know it is crap? By the results -- or lack thereof -- of its practitioners. And, by comparing its methods to how functional, modern, sport-oriented training methods (and its results). To top that off, modern research into sport science and motor skill development reinforces that view.

just because there is no KF fight league that doesnt mean KF is crap. Judo is a subset of jiujitsu and was made into a sport way before there were jiujitsu leagues. with your logic, back then you would say that jiujitsu training was crap and judo was the cat's meow because judo was a sport and jiujitsu was not.

My "logic" is to look for evidence before jumping to conclusions. You want to believe that traditional training "works". But you can't supply any evidence that it does. All you can do is assert that it really does work. That is a very simple thing to see -- all it takes is a trip to mix it up with some competent fighters. You can see for yourself whether YOUR tradtional training works or not. What I don't hear from you or anyone is that you are doing that.

If you are so sure that your traditional training works, why don't you go visit a MMA school or MT school and see? Why not ask your sifu to go with you?

The answer is we both know what would happen. You would get spanked. So would your sifu. That's not an insult. It's what will happen to anyone who isn't training functionally. You know that. But you don't want to admit it to yourself.

if you read and understoood what i wrote about the availability of competent trainers in KF you wouldn't make this argument. its faulty logic. you are ignoring a large variable.

You keep trying to find EXCUSES why you can't find any evidence. People really can levitate they just are rare and secretive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Muscle memory -
If one wants "short term" muscle memory gains then doing 100's or 100's of reps for a short period of time is the best way to go, however, if one wants long term muscle memory retention,a more limited and "even paced" training is more benefitial.
Studies have shown this to be true in even fine motor skills.
Of course one must be as SPECIFIC as possible to the actual activity EX:
1000 punches in the air are far less benefitial for developing "powerful" punches than 100 punches on a heavy bag, or focus mitt ( for example).

[t_niehoff]

I would go far as to say that IMHO once they had made thier training more functional and gained more experience (because Kung Lee did San Shou and GSP entered tourneys early early on) they utlise more tools / better timing and smoother movement than other good fighters that dont have a TMA background.

I generalise i know, but over time you can see the trend IMO.

I think this is a TMA appeal -- trying to find some advantage to TMA training. But it doesn't make sense. For example, if you take someone who practices some complete bullsh1t (that we can agree on) and then goes off and trains MMA with some good trainers and fighters, then becomes really good at MMA, it hardly proves that the bullsh1t provided any advantage in their development.

There's no doubt that TMAs have good, useful techniques, mechancis, etc. But the way they are taught/trained doesn't produce good results. If it did, then GSP and Machida wouldn't have NEEDED to do all the functional training that they did.

Getting back to Body mechanics in a Wing Chun sence, functional training is a must but the real issue lies in the styles method of applying body mechanics.

And Wing CHun IMHO has a use of body mechanics so different to everyday body behaviour its method has to be taken into consideration when learning its body mechanics.

I don't agree. In fact, if we try to use body mechanics that aren't very natural (something we will normally do) they won't work, certainly not under high levels of pressure or stress.

Body mechanics is using your body in a specific way to accomplish some task. Our bodies are hard-wired, via "design", to move in certain specific ways. You can't get around that. It's when we try -- when we don't move naturally -- that we f#ck everything up.

Example.

Put a newbie with no fighting experience in a ring on day one and say just do what feels natural, Go BANG.... 9 times out of ten IME you would see the individual perform lets say anywhere between 35 - 45% the same body mechanics of boxing.
Body unity, power lines weight dist etc etc would all be off and require tweaking / perfecting but the base would be there because Boxings mechanics are more simlilar to everyday body behaviour...its closer to a natural state of behaviour than WC's mechanics.
(opinions will vary on the % sure.)

When you give people a new task they are not going to immediately perform it with optimal mechanics. By practicing the task, and getting pointers from people who can perform the task skillfully (with max certainty and min time/effort) they will learn and develop the ability to perform it skillfully too.

WCK's mechanics are different from boxing because the task is different. Boxing isn't attached fighting, it is unattached striking. WCK is an attached fighitng method that combines striking and grappling. So naturally, the mechanics are different. But if you ask an untrained person to hold and hit, for example, then it will begin to look very similar to WCK mechanics.

Not everyone would behave the same but more would be similar than not IME.

Now Wing Chun is far from this. Your everyday natural body behaviour would rarely find anything similar to Bong Sau, Tan Sau huen sau... perhaps ones natural behaviour when picking up heavy objects is to keep the elbows in but even thats a stretch and would be unique if just thrown in a ring.

If you put people into an attached fighting situation and just let them go at it, you will see bong, tan, etc. arise.

And its for this very reason i believe that what would be the traditional aspects of Wing Chun - the drills and especially the forms are a must - to introduce different habbits shapes and actions that essentially are teaching you foreign actions to become habbit....

The curriculum of WCK provides a trainee with the contact skills (actions and tactics) necessary for attached fighting. They are not introducing "habits" since a habit is an unconscious behavior -- and can only be developed by really doing the behavior enough to make it unconscious. Fighting habits can only be developed by fighting.

The forms don't develop anything. They are a "textbook". A toolbox. You don't need forms. In fact, some branches of WCK, and even early WCK, didn't ahve forms. Forms are just an ancient, traditional way of passing on the text.

Its my opinion through the experience of teaching people in VT (as an assistant) that without the forms and drills prior to more functional training like sparring then fighting and/or compitition etc you cant truely make the habbit actions of Wing Chun your own fighting habbits... people revert to the original basic bahaviour which is why so many are said to "look like KB" etc.

And this is where the lines can blur....

On the other side - the problem that arises with whats considered "fantasy training" is riding on the back of these wing chun specific factors, the fact that the type of person thats attracted to Wing Chun is generally not the natural fighter who wants to bang from day one, they generally are attrackted to boxing or KB...and also that people get stuck in drills and forms and dont complement that with functional application of the skills that are being trained to become habbit because they dont have the inclination to fight...thier more the intelectual hobbiest.
There are a myriad of reasons that muddy the waters of the Traditional training method because there is more room for error...without proper time in a style and quality of instruction.

So the long short of it is IME for a person to become good with VT mechanics they really do need the forms to introduce the unique mechanics, drills to marry that to timing and more dynamic spontaneous behaviour and then sparring / fighting or basic compitition to elevate its functionality -

Without all these elements combined the house of cards becomes less and less stable. its a simple fact.Its a balance IME.

The problem is that mechanics are task specific. And that you can only develop the mechanics for doing a task by doing the task. For example, you can't develop the mechanics for throwing a ball without throwing the ball. Mechanics are part of an action. ACTION + OBJECTIVE (task) = SKILL. You need to perform the task so that you have feedback. Practing a form for throwing a ball will never develop the mechanics or skill in the task.

It's the same with WCK mechanics. If you aren't doing the task, you can't develop the mechanics.

But to say you dont need the forms or drills to make it functional is a farce IMO akin to discounting the importance of good hard sparring etc.

Hope i got my point across.

DREW

Whenever we talk about mechanics, we need to also talk about the task. The mechanics are there not just for themselves but to perform some task. It is the performance of the task that is the objective.

The forms and drills of WCK teach trainees how to perform an action. But they can't teach you or develop the ability to perform the task -- the task is something we do in fighting. By taking the ACTION you learn in the forms and drills and then using it to perform the TASK (fighting), you develop SKILL (the ability to perform the task with max certainty and min time/effort).