An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity

[1bad65]

So, in a nutshell 'alive' training was indeed a factor. It allowed Anthony to survive the strikes, and I believe Rudy would have learned to breathe better had he done alive training. Notice that Anthony, who took more shots then Rudy and shot for several takedowns, was not really that winded after the fight.

[1bad65]

Those types of knees aren't legal in most mma tournaments are they?


This is correct. They are illegal in the UFC and in Texas. I'm pretty sure they are illegal in every state in the US, but I'm not sure. They were legal in the early UFCs though. They were legal in the rules agreed to for this fight though. Had Rudy not tapped he easily could have had serious head trauma.

Despite all the banter, I was glad to see both men get out of the fight without serious injury.

[phoenixrising]

I have taken a few months of BJJ in the past. A few months ago I was rolling with a 5X Wrestling Senior National Champion who has wrestled for 30+ years. After he took me down, landing on top of me, I tapped him with a guillotine. After getting up, he told me that they don't train to defend against those because they're against the rules. Now, he did go on to cream me twice in a row after that, but I think this empirical anecdote does support RDs point, i.e., that if you train a sport and ignore certain things because they're against the rules (anything from weapons to groin strikes) than they COULD BE a potential blind spot in a street fight because you reflexively ignore ignore them.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, in a nutshell 'alive' training was indeed a factor. It allowed Anthony to survive the strikes, and I believe Rudy would have learned to breathe better had he done alive training. Notice that Anthony, who took more shots then Rudy and shot for several takedowns, was not really that winded after the fight.

Reply]
No, you are wrong because Rudy does do plenty of Alive training, and allways has. He's from a really Old School Kung Fu line. I think during his knee injury issues he just lost a lot of his conditioning and simply did not have enough time to build it back up to it's previous levels for this fight. That requires a lot of solo work.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

phoenixrising,
Thanks for helping me articulate my position. :)

[FatherDog]

Hmm, can't find fault with my argument, so you call me a moron?

Asia, an active duty military man who is heavily involved with teaching military combatives training told you something about how they train, how they emphasize BJJ, and how that strategy worked in the field, and your response was the equivalent of "Nuh-uh."

If you can't find the fault with that on your own, us pointing it out is unlikely to be effective, so it's easier to just call you a moron, since that is in fact the case.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am having a hard time believing the actually Emphasis BJJ and it's tactics.

He sites like2-3 examples, out of an entire sea of combat over there.

Like I said before, I know some BJJ is taught, but an emphasis? I doubt that.

I would have to look further into that and see it being true from a number of sources before I buy it.

I have a hard time buying anything when all I have is a single source.

[1bad65]

If RD felt the world was flat, no amount of evidence would convince him otherwise.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, I just like multiple info sources to be in agreement. Right now I have several, but they don't seem to agree.

My opinion will be dictated by the info as I digest it. Right now, other than Asia every source I see seems to show BJJ is not a predominant force in the USMC, AND Asia himself only sited a few examples without really going into detail. He may very well have sited examples where the soldiers just got lucky and survived, who knows.

I am never happy with what I see on the surface. Life has taught me what is underneath is often the opposite of what shows at the top.

[1bad65]

So Osiris, Anthony, and any soldier using BJJ got lucky then? :rolleyes: It appears KF guys never 'get lucky' or win with skill either. :D

I guess Occam's Razor is a foreign concept to you. I guess anyone stupid enough to get drawn into a MA cult can't be expected be a rational, intelligent individual.

[Asia]

I am having a hard time believing the actually Emphasis BJJ and it's tactics.

He sites like2-3 examples, out of an entire sea of combat over there.

I site 3 that dealt with the technique you brought up. And FYI CQB does happen but its a small fraction to the number of firefights that happen.


Like I said before, I know some BJJ is taught, but an emphasis? I doubt that.
Ofcourse don't let my first hand experience throw you off.:rolleyes:
FYI the first two levels of the program is BJJ 101. This can be clearly seen in the FM. And BJJ is not only ground grappling. I know this might surprise some but there is a lot of self defense in it too. Pick up Helio's book, which is actually pretty good despite the hight price, or get Royler and Renzo's book which the FM practially mirros. Better yet I highly recommend Greg Thompson's book it shows what we do very well. Greg is certified Level 3 and spends alot of time with the guys at Bragg.


I would have to look further into that and see it being true from a number of sources before I buy it.
Sure don't let a guy that does it for a living and has actually been to combat, teaches others the same thing and have actually seen it done. Getting things straight from the horses mouth is overrated, isn't it.


I have a hard time buying anything when all I have is a single source.
Hell I can get you in touch with many sources even Matt Larsen, SFC retired/RANGER and father of MACP. You have Tim Kennedy (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=2830), Special Forces + Professinal MMA fighter. Jeff Yurk, is a lucky SOB and getts anything he wants to run his program, even TDY for Mundials.....but I'm not bitter. All are "been there and done that" guys and I will be seeing them next week at the All Army Combatives event. What would you like me to have them tell you?

[Asia]

No, I just like multiple info sources to be in agreement. Right now I have several, but they don't seem to agree.

My opinion will be dictated by the info as I digest it. Right now, other than Asia every source I see seems to show BJJ is not a predominant force in the USMC, AND Asia himself only sited a few examples without really going into detail. He may very well have sited examples where the soldiers just got lucky and survived, who knows.

I am never happy with what I see on the surface. Life has taught me what is underneath is often the opposite of what shows at the top.

BJJ not being a predominant force in the USMC!?!?!?!

Uh WRONG!!!

http://onthemat.com/articles/RESULTS__US_Armed_Forces_Pankration_Championships_ 03_30_2006.html

This is an event put on by SoCal Pankration. Its a really nice one. Marines bring more pple than any other branch. They ALL do BJJ. EVER LAST ONE OF THEM. The Marines seen teams to compete in BJJ tournaments.

I've trained MCMAP with the Marines stationed here with me and low and behold they start out with basic BJJ.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

OK. I guess I was wrong then.

[SanHeChuan]

Marines Training BJJ on their own and THE MARINE CORPS training Marines in BJJ are two different things. I just got out of the Marine Corps this year, and right now the MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. Although BJJ/westling is done from time to time for fun it is not a big part of the official curriculum.

It just so happens that the Marine Corps tends to draw on the same personalities as BJJ/MMA, so your bound to get crossover.


I've trained MCMAP with the Marines stationed here with me and low and behold they start out with basic BJJ.

I was never taught any BJJ in the Marine Corps. I would not call the basic level stuff BJJ. It may share some similarities to standing BJJ self defense, I'll take your word on that, but it is also just like the standing self defense of just about every other martial art I've done. Nothing I was taught in MCMAP was anything like the BJJ I learned from Clay Pittman.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Marines Training BJJ on their own and THE MARINE CORPS training Marines in BJJ are two different things. I just got out of the Marine Corps this year, and right now the MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. Although BJJ/westling is done from time to time for fun it is not a big part of the official curriculum.

It just so happens that the Marine Corps tends to draw on the same personalities as BJJ/MMA, so your bound to get crossover.

Reply]
Well, this is pretty much what I have seen and heard from anyone I have ever spoken to about this...except Asia.

[Phrost]

Well, this is pretty much what I have seen and heard from anyone I have ever spoken to about this...except Asia.

Who happens to be in a completely separate (and significantly larger) branch of the military.

But hey, what does a battalion-level NCO and one of the top U.S. Army combatives instructors know about how the army fights, eh?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So is Asia Army, or USMC?

If he is Army, then it really does not matter what he says, my discussion is what the USMC is doing.

[Asia]

Marines Training BJJ on their own and THE MARINE CORPS training Marines in BJJ are two different things. I just got out of the Marine Corps this year, and right now the MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. Although BJJ/westling is done from time to time for fun it is not a big part of the official curriculum.[]

It just so happens that the Marine Corps tends to draw on the same personalities as BJJ/MMA, so your bound to get crossover.



I was never taught any BJJ in the Marine Corps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxwibX9ZRMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNC0cSqY8k0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzVVKL_0FM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYl8QsR49cg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx4r9JfaoCk

BJJ is definitely part of MCMAP. They were using the same guard to scissor sweep setup we do in MACP. And the same Armbar drills, used the same positional hierarchy as well. All of which came from BJJ.


Here is the MACP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyzrVx2ahw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDrlD9SpE2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUIHUNgzxMs
Note I didn't say BJJ was the only thing done but it is does play a big part in both systems as the videos show.

[Asia]

So is Asia Army, or USMC?
I'm Army but if you don't want to take my word for it I know many of the guys on the link I posted. They will tell you the same thing I am.


If he is Army, then it really does not matter what he says, my discussion is what the USMC is doing.

WRONG. I am stationed with Marines, as well a Navy and Air Force. This is a training center were all branches, even foreign forces come to train. I still have way more insight in this than you do.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Is it a big part, or a small part. That is the question.

[Asia]

Is it a big part, or a small part. That is the question.

Which clip DIDN'T show anything from BJJ?

You can argue that the same moves exist in Judo, which is also in the mix, but it wasn't Judoka that were invited in to "train the trainers" it was BJJ guys for the groundwork.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WRONG. I am stationed with Marines, as well a Navy and Air Force. This is a training center were all branches, even foreign forces come to train. I still have way more insight in this than you do

Reply]
Ok. If you are in the mix, then you are in the mix.

Considering your depth of immersion, can you answer this? How come I have heard from Marines that they really don't do much BJJ?

[SanHeChuan]

If you could get your hands on one of the official Instructional DVD's the Marine Corps sends out to all their Black Belt Instructors, then we could settle this definitively. It has all the techniques they are teaching now, so that all the instructors are doing and teaching the same things.

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/TBS/



Tan Belt
The tan belt syllabus focuses on the development of the basics of armed and unarmed combat. Students start with the Basic Warrior Stance and break-falls are taught for safety, then move to:

basic punches, uppercuts, and hooks
basic upper-body strikes, including the eye gouge, hammer fists, and elbow strikes
basic lower-body strikes, including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
bayonet techniques
basic chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
basic unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
basic knife techniques
basic weapons of opportunity
Students must prove proficiency with 80% of 50 techniques to pass and earn their belt. The tan belt syllabus is part of The Basic School and recruit training curriculum.

Gray Belt
The gray belt syllabus expands on the basic techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
intermediate upper-body strikes including knife-hands (karate chops) and elbow strikes
intermediate lower-body strikes including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
intermediate unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
intermediate knife techniques
basic ground fighting
basic nonlethal baton techniques
intermediate weapons on opportunity

Green Belt
The Green belt technique shifts focus from defensive to offensive techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
muscle gouging
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes
intermediate unarmed manipulation
intermediate ground fighting
intermediate nonlethal baton techniques
advanced weapons of opportunity

Brown Belt
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced ground fighting and chokes
advanced throws
unarmed vs. hand held weapons
firearm retention
firearm disarmament
advanced knife techniques
advanced nonlethal baton techniques

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons

Black Belt 2nd Degree
rifle vs. rifle
short weapon vs. rifle
unarmed vs. rifle

big part, little part, you decide.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think I made the point before that it is a small part of the curriclulem, based in part on this curriculum list. There are 40+ skill sets listed there...only 4 are ground fighting.

[rogue]

RD, one of the goals is to have it all blend together. If you dwell on one part you miss the point of the training.

One mind, any weapon.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe.

I just don't think BJJ is a big a part of it as it is made out to be. I have discussed this with Marines in the past. Asia is the only one who says BJJ is a big part of the curriculum.

[rogue]

How much it makes up isn't what matters, it's an essential part of these programs. It's a part of a greater whole. Look at this video and notice everything from BJJ 101 to the use of a garrote. The Marines are looking for a complete fighting system and BJJ as well as karate and whatever else has something of value is used. If it helps you can just stop thinking of it as BJJ and consider MCMAP an art unto itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzVVKL_0FM


SanHeChuan, did you ever get more into MCMAP?

[SanHeChuan]

Nope. :mad:

From what I saw of it, it just wasn't worth sticking around for. :rolleyes:

I'll just have to wait for the Air force to come up with a martial arts program, but I don't think it'll have the same credibility. ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

HOLY SMOKES!!!!!

This technique used at :30 is one of the first techniques in my foundational Tai Tzu form!!

The USMC does Tai Tzu Whoo Hoooo!!!!! :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzVVKL_0FM


We do it as a take down, not really as a gun defense, but I'm going to play with it as such now!!! :p

[rogue]

You do know where Force Recon and green hats go when they need a challenge?

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/airforce/a/combatcontrol.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Pararescue

[rogue]

HOLY SMOKES!!!!!

This technique used at :30 is one of the first techniques in my foundational Tai Tzu form!!

The USMC does Tai Tzu Whoo Hoooo!!!!! :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzVVKL_0FM


We do it as a take down, not really as a gun defense, but I'm going to play with it as such now!!! :p

Happy now?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Happy now?

Reply]
YUP!!! He's "almost" doing the form verbetum right there!

If he reaches over and grabs his other elbow, and stands by supporting his body weight on his knee that is in the opponents rib,there is a sweet arm bar right there too.

LOL!! it's funny to see this, because just yesterday I was discussing this very technique somewhere on here and mention that I know a wrestler, and that I had been working with him recently. I took him down with that one, and he just randomly pointed out the arm bar. I had never even thought about it, but it was right there in front of my nose the whole time. I just never saw it.

I used to GnP from that throw. Now I have a submission from it!!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

LOL!!! Looking at it closer, after he does the throw, he ends up locking the guys elbow using ANOTHER posture from one of my other forms too!! That makes TWO now!! This one is EXACTLY like the form, no mods at all!!

Now I have Two submissions from that throw!! Yipppeeee!! :D

[Asia]

WRONG. I am stationed with Marines, as well a Navy and Air Force. This is a training center were all branches, even foreign forces come to train. I still have way more insight in this than you do

Reply]
Ok. If you are in the mix, then you are in the mix.

Considering your depth of immersion, can you answer this? How come I have heard from Marines that they really don't do much BJJ?

You mean your RETIRED Marines?

I am deal with ACTIVE DUTY ones and watch and participate in training often. Shrimp drills are done, Basic headlock escapes are done, Armbar drills is done, positional dominace, all the basics. They are not doing spider guard into an omoplata but they don't need to the basics suit the needs. The Marines on Bullshido are saying the same thing, mainly because I rag on them for a lil sibling rivalry. You still have to make time for the other training but for the hand to hand part I've seen mainly BJJ, Judo, MT, being done.

[rogue]

LOL!!! Looking at it closer, after he does the throw, he ends up locking the guys elbow using ANOTHER posture from one of my other forms too!! That makes TWO now!! This one is EXACTLY like the form, no mods at all!!

Now I have Two submissions from that throw!! Yipppeeee!! :D

So does it matter that the technique came from MCMAP, and now how much of your style is now MCMAP? Does any of it matter?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Apparently .0005% of MCMAP is Tai Tzu. :D

[Asia]

Apparently .0005% of MCMAP is Tai Tzu. :D

Well some guys do call it "Semper Fu"

[rogue]

Asia,
What are the green hats training these days? Are they adding something of their own to the official program or still doing their own home grown unconventional thing?

[Asia]

Asia,
What are the green hats training these days? Are they adding something of their own to the official program or still doing their own home grown unconventional thing?

They are getting cart blanche to do whatever they want.

You guys want a cage to play in? Sure its only a couple of grand.

What? You want to travel cross country to roll? Sure cut the orders.

[FatherDog]

As a side note, I like how people say "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight" as if that was an argument against BJJ.

It's actually the strongest argument for BJJ.

In a real fight situation, most fights will come in two types - the insults, chest puffing, macho shoving-match leading up to someone finally getting the nerve to throw a punch, and then the type where the guy next to you decides he heard you say something about his girl, or doesn't like your ethnicity, or wants your wallet, isn't interested in talking about it, and throws down on you before you know there's a fight going on or even if he's there.

The first type of fight is the one you can see coming, which means it's the one you shouldn't be in - you should be doing the Bruce Lee fighting by not fighting thing, de-escalating verbally, talking him down, etc.

In the second type of fight, you're not going to know you're in a fight until it's already happening, and at that point he's probably already either hit you or tackled you. If he hits you while you're not looking, odds are you may fall down. If he tackles you without looking, you're almost certainly going down unless you have superhuman reflexes.

Now, guess what - YOU'RE IN THE LAST PLACE YOU WANT TO BE IN A STREETFIGHT. You're on the ground with the broken glass and syringes and lava where you can get kicked in the head, and you probably have a guy on top of you throwing punches, or even worse standing above you stomping on you.

If you've trained a lot of BJJ, you may not be used to the punches and kicks (although even many academies that aren't MMA still work with strikes regularly), but at least you're used to being underneath someone, controlling his posture and controlling his legs while going for sweeps or subs, so you have a decent chance of choking him out, or sweeping him and getting up where you can run away, just like Anthony was able to continually clinch and shoot even after having his bell rung, because that was what he had trained to do over and over and that was what he was familiar with.

If you've trained a lot of MMA, you're used to all the above /and/ you're used to getting punched while doing it, even if it's not as hard as you're getting hit now, so you have an even better chance of choking him out quick or getting up and away.

If, on the other hand, the extent of your grappling training is a couple throws from your forms and a few submissions that chain off those throws that you work "every once in a while"... now you're in a position you're almost never in in training, you've just gotten your bell rung, and your odds of being able to pull off anything but "eat punches till you're spitting teeth" or "turn over to try and get up and take stomps and kicks to the back of the head and spine" are very, very slim.

For real, realistic self-defense training, BJJ and some form of realistic knife defense (such as STAB, or possibly others which someone more knowledgeable on weapons than I, such as Knifefighter, could probably provide) should be top priorities. Striking should be a distant third.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If, on the other hand, the extent of your grappling training is a couple throws from your forms and a few submissions that chain off those throws that you work "every once in a while"... now you're in a position you're almost never in in training, you've just gotten your bell rung, and your odds of being able to pull off anything but "eat punches till you're spitting teeth" or "turn over to try and get up and take stomps and kicks to the back of the head and spine" are very, very slim.

Reply]
This is another reason why I advocate cross training in a ground system...just enough in case you get in trouble.

For real, realistic self-defense training, BJJ and some form of realistic knife defense (such as STAB, or possibly others which someone more knowledgeable on weapons than I, such as Knifefighter, could probably provide) should be top priorities. Striking should be a distant third.

Reply]
I think my Kung Fu is just fine with strikes, locks and throws. No need to add anything there. As far as adding a Knife fighting system, I'd go to Black Jack or Mas Judt way before knife fighter....of course that has to do with the fact that both are in my back yard , but also because I trust thier skills.

[The Xia]

Everyone isn't sick of TCMA vs. MMA yet? :eek:

[Phrost]

Everyone isn't sick of TCMA vs. MMA yet? :eek:

Real Traditional Chinese Martial Artists actually tested their skills via *gasp* fighting, and if your school sucked you got run out of town.

The overwhelming majority of what is now called "TCMA" is anything but traditional.

This has always been People Who Advocate Effective Training vs. LARPers, Walter Mittys, and Frauds, and not MMA vs. TMA/TCMA/whatever.

[jmd161]

Real Traditional Chinese Martial Artists actually tested their skills via *gasp* fighting, and if your school sucked you got run out of town.

The overwhelming majority of what is now called "TCMA" is anything but traditional.

This has always been People Who Advocate Effective Training vs. LARPers, Walter Mittys, and Frauds, and not MMA vs. TMA/TCMA/whatever.


True!


I myself hate these discussions, but I also think they're helping to take TCMA back to where it needs to be.



jeff:)

[johnnycache]

MMA fighters DO get "arrogant" around other "martial artists" sometimes. Let's not draw the line at "traditional" vs "mma" but rather at "hard and real" vs "stripmall hypothesizers"

Why?

Because when you fight every day, spar every class, walk around bruised all the time, and actually, routinely fight with people that are actually, really trying to hurt you (you can gripe all you want about "rules" but there's really not a whole lot of holding back in MMA) . . . you don't want to be lectured by some guy that does kung fu at the rec center about how he gave a guy a black eye this one time and he could easily nerve rip his way out of an RNC...it ****es you off.

A point fighter tells you it's more important to make contact first because "in a real fight" that's what matters. . . it ****es you off.

A video tape master tells you eastern martial arts are better then boxing "because they have kicking" . . . it ****es you off.

You tell someone you do martial arts and they picture Kip from Napoleon Dynamite . . . yep, it ****es you off.

You know how durable the human body is, you know your own breaking points and those of others inside and out, and you have to hear from armchair heroes how the nosebone can go into the brain, it ... that's right, ****es you off.

You spend years learning the right ways to hit someone without giving up your balance, the right ways to take someone from their feet, the right way to keep someone on their back, the right way to submit someone, only to have people tell you "that's just streetfighting there's no skill there, not like kung fu" . . . it ****es you off.

Now I'm sure none of this applies to any of you - you all, of course, only train at REAL kung fu schools where you do the hard stuff the old way, right? So you agree with me about the idiots out there that cheapen us all.

On to RD - a few comments I HAVE TO address:

Dude, you're arguing about the content of the army combatives program with someone who teaches it for a living.

You are strawmanning OVER and OVER by INSISTING that it is the first tenet of military grappling to take the enemy to the ground.

And finally "good kung fu has all the same elements as BJJ except the ground grappling"

Dude, seriously, that's LITERALLY saying, "Kung fu is just as complete as BJJ but it isn't"

and to the "ON TEH STREETS NO IS RULES ANYTHING GOES ANY MEENS NEEDED WHT GO IN RING NO MATTER CUZ OF CRIPS WITH UZIS" crowd... you know what? I'll tell you, from years of hard living, that on "the mean streets" THE SURPRISE ATTACK IS KING and neither body of technique will attune you to that, it's a skill independent of hand to hand fighting.

That fact, however, does not excuse poor training.

Getting really, really good at fighting hand to hand won't HURT you on the street. Knowing that the best way to kick someone's ass is to jump them unaware is no reason not to train to fight someone who IS aware - because you don't always dictate the terms you fight on. Street tactics are intrinsic - the dirty rush on the street favors the attacker, period.
Street awareness and attack awareness are what save your life, martial arts training you may or may not have is simply a factor in your response.

All this swaggering crap about how "that's just the ring, in the street things are different" stuff, that's got to go. It makes no sense. If you can't beat a man you know is coming, how will you beat a man you don't know is coming? If you can't beat one man, how will you beat two? If you can't beat an unarmed man, how will you beat an armed man? If you seriously believe an untrained fighter is a greater threat then a trained fighter, why are you training? Is your answer to "can you fight one man in a ring" seriously, always going to be "who cares, it could be worse then one man?"

You can't go get in real bar fights and gang violence every day. Real bar fighters and gang members don't even get in bar fights and gang violence every day. You can only simulate as best you can - and the pace and intensity of MMA or other full contact, limited rules sparring are a far better approximation then any sparring where simulation enters the picture.

What does this mean? In the words of the Dog Brothers, "This is a stick. It's not a sword, it's not a magic wand, it's a stick"

The second you break down and say "oh man IF this situation would have been X then I would have done Y and you'd be Z" your training has failed.

Any point sparring where you "score" hits as more then they actually are? Failed training. No, you didn't hit that guy. No, you wouldn't have hurt him "in real life" because your level of contact is terrible. Level of contact requires long term training of gross motor skills and distancing - it is HARDER to change accustomed level of contact, esp. from soft to hard, then it is to change your aim from an allowed area to a prohibited one. Train full contact with the targets that are safe for full contact, and you'll find you aren't as delicate as you think, and also that you CAN hit places that aren't safe if you want.

Simulation needs to be either extremely self evident (fake knife leaves a deep scratch in your neck, not hard to figure out) or non-existent, IE "well, I took him down and strangled him," not "I stole his momentum and captured his balance, then I checked a blow that could have been lethal just in time"

The simulative, ceremonial, hypothetical mindset is the enemy of realistic training, and unrealistic training gets your head stomped in the octagon.

When I train something for MMA, it is literally no more then days (at the outside) from the first apprehension of the technique to the first chance to use it full speed. Contrasted to my experience in what would be called "traditional" martial arts, where it might be months or even years before I could spar, and in that sparring I would not be able to use the full body of technique, and I'll tell you each week of the MMA training is worth a month of the "traditional" (note: quoted because hard, real training IS traditional, the non-sparring "tradition" is an invention of the 60s-70s-80s karate/kung fu pop culture) training, if not more. MMA is the best "lab" I have found, in 15 or so years of training, for "experimentation" with martial arts and hand to hand situations.

So if a pragmatic, brutal, "fighting oriented," un-philosophical cage fighter seems ****y or arrogant or annoyed around you, seems to brush off your ideas about kung fu or fighting in general, check to see if he has a point before you let your undergarments bunch up.

And if he doesn't - feel free to drop by his gym and demonstrate what you're talking about. If it keeps his head on his shoulders, or unmounts the other guy's he'll use it and he won't care what country it came from.

[Mr Punch]

Tan Belt
The tan belt syllabus focuses on the development of the basics of armed and unarmed combat. Students start with the Basic Warrior Stance and break-falls are taught for safety, then move to:

basic punches, uppercuts, and hooks
basic upper-body strikes, including the eye gouge, hammer fists, and elbow strikes
basic lower-body strikes, including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
bayonet techniques
basic chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
basic unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
basic knife techniques
basic weapons of opportunity
Students must prove proficiency with 80% of 50 techniques to pass and earn their belt. The tan belt syllabus is part of The Basic School and recruit training curriculum.

Gray Belt
The gray belt syllabus expands on the basic techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
intermediate upper-body strikes including knife-hands (karate chops) and elbow strikes
intermediate lower-body strikes including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
intermediate unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
intermediate knife techniques
basic ground fighting
basic nonlethal baton techniques
intermediate weapons on opportunity

Green Belt
The Green belt technique shifts focus from defensive to offensive techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
muscle gouging
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes
intermediate unarmed manipulation
intermediate ground fighting intermediate nonlethal baton techniques
advanced weapons of opportunity

Brown Belt
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced ground fighting and chokes
advanced throws
unarmed vs. hand held weapons
firearm retention
firearm disarmament
advanced knife techniques
advanced nonlethal baton techniques

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons

Black Belt 2nd Degree
rifle vs. rifle
short weapon vs. rifle
unarmed vs. rifle Not that this irrelevant BS in a sea of irrelevant BS means anything, but bolded are the parts that I think could come from or strongly overlap with BJJ training. If you are still banging on about BJJ being only groundwork, you're as ignorant as... well, RD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my almost 30 years of MA training, competing, bouncing and military, my "sport combat arts" have never failed me once, ever.
I am a traditionalist, my arts are TMA and when I read the article on BJJ back in 86 I wanted to try it out, there wasn't any around, so I went back to judo ( having done it back in Portugal till 86) and as soon as I was able to try it out I did and it was great fun.

In the Canadian military its basically Boxing, MT, Judo and Sambo or was when I left in 98, I am sure it has added BJJ and rightly so, why not add something that works ?

My BJJ/MMA instructors ( Fabiano and Santos) were great and taught me stuff that I will keep with me forever, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with a system that has been proved over and over again.

Don't like the people?
Fine.
But I have yet to meet a high ranking BJJ practioner that is NOT a super nice guy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WRONG. I am stationed with Marines, as well a Navy and Air Force. This is a training center were all branches, even foreign forces come to train. I still have way more insight in this than you do

Reply]
Ok. If you are in the mix, then you are in the mix.

Considering your depth of immersion, can you answer this? How come I have heard from Marines that they really don't do much BJJ?

There is even an example from this forum.



Marines Training BJJ on their own and THE MARINE CORPS training Marines in BJJ are two different things. I just got out of the Marine Corps this year, and right now the MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. Although BJJ/westling is done from time to time for fun it is not a big part of the official curriculum.

It just so happens that the Marine Corps tends to draw on the same personalities as BJJ/MMA, so your bound to get crossover.



I was never taught any BJJ in the Marine Corps. I would not call the basic level stuff BJJ. It may share some similarities to standing BJJ self defense, I'll take your word on that, but it is also just like the standing self defense of just about every other martial art I've done. Nothing I was taught in MCMAP was anything like the BJJ I learned from Clay Pittman.

Asia,
I have no doubt what you are telling me is true, but I also do not doubt what others are telling me is true...so what gives, why the large disparity between everyone's testimony?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Perspective and point of view,that's all.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are either doing it, or not. There is no room for interpretive perspective here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are either doing it, or not. There is no room for interpretive perspective here.

Yes there is, someone with a BJJ background will see BJJ, someone with a Judo background will see judo, someone with a wrestling background will see wrestling, etc, etc.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

SanHeChuan has a BJJ background through Clay Pittman....and he does not see much BJJ in MCMAP.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SanHeChuan has a BJJ background through Clay Pittman....and he does not see much BJJ in MCMAP.

and yet, others do...it seems that his is a question of what one CHOOSES to see.

Don't know what this has to do with anything anyways, but it is an interesting discussion.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, so far I have learned that Army does way more BJJ than USMC.

I am wondering if Asia sees more BJJ, because he is Army and the Army does more BJJ, where as all the Marines I have talked to don't, because they were actually in the Marines rather than on the outside looking in, and the USMC does not emphasis BJJ to the extent the Army does.

Now, here is a question, does Army do more civilian policing?

Or, who does more Combat, Marines, or USMC?

Who does more Policing, Army, or USMC?

Maybe the Combat units do less BJJ because going to the ground is not all that smart under clear life or death combat situations, but Policing units do more BJJ because getting a suspect down, and restrained so they can be arrested and detained is the order of the day?

So far the only One I have talked to that says USMC does a lot of BJJ is Asia (who is Army anyway). Any actual Marines who were recently in say no. I am thinking the amount of BJJ training might have more to do with the amount of Policing a unit is likely to be doing. This might explain the differing accounts I am seeing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

H2H plays a very small role in the military, if one was to list a priority it would be:

For the group:

Firepower
Small arms
Edge and blunt weapons
H2H

for the individual, the same thing:

Rifle skills
Small arms
Edge and impact weapons
H2H

Not sure why it matters which facet one group favours over the other since its pretty logical to assume that the more well rounded has a better chance of survival.

[Yao Sing]

and yet, others do...it seems that his is a question of what one CHOOSES to see.

I think this is the closest to the truth yet. Everyone is biased, it's human nature. More so if you're trying to make a point.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think this is the closest to the truth yet. Everyone is biased, it's human nature. More so if you're trying to make a point.

The first time I saw BJJ I didn't see anything other than judo ground work, because that was not only what I had been exposed to, but what I chose to see, sometimes stubbornly so.

[Asia]

SanHeChuan has a BJJ background through Clay Pittman....and he does not see much BJJ in MCMAP.
If he can look at those clips and says he doesn't see much BJJ then I would have to question the level of his BJJ background.

It not about what someone sees. If a BJJ guy, even Rorion Gracie, was asked to teach Marines Grappling then its a solid thing to say that the ground grappling and even some of the stand SD material is BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1RurfbNu6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO-_Q85zwUo

[sanjuro_ronin]

If he can look at those clips and says he doesn't see much BJJ then I would have to question the level of his BJJ background.

It now about what someone see. If a BJJ, even Rorion Gracie, was asked to teach Marines Grappling then its a solid thing to say that the ground grappling and even of the stand SD material is BJJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1RurfbNu6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO-_Q85zwUo

Best vintage GJJ clip I have ever seen LOL !

I am not a BJJ nutrider, nor do I play one on TV, but I fail to see how ANYONE can't enjoy that clip of Rickson and Royler.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ranger seem to like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTo7xErnnw&mode=related&search=

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

3:31 COMMENTER SAYS "We kind of boil it down to about 13 moves that are sort of the core of a fighting strategy."

3:46 We can take somebody, give them 5 or 10, or 15 hours instruction and actually are a better fighter.

WOW!! 15 hours? *I* have that much grappling experience!! Not recently, but High school.

Although, that does seem to fit my basic premis that a Kung Fu guy only really needs to cross train in the core essentials in case he is forced to the ground, rather than learning to be a BJJ master.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Although, that does seem to fit my basic premis that a Kung Fu guy only really needs to cross train in the core essentials in case he is forced to the ground, rather than learning to be a BJJ master.

Why would you think you need to become a BJJ master ??
I woudl say that a couple of years of constant training in BJJ can give almost anyone a good base to deal with a typical ground fighting situation.

As for the time frame in the clip, you do realize how little time they (the military) spend on H2H in basic Training right?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, actually I do...now.

Anyway, this has given me a thought. Since i really don't want to be a ground guy, and prefer the Chinese way of doing things, how much BJJ Ground type fighting do I really need to learn to escape the ground and get back into my game?

AND can this be done with Greco/Roman Wrestling? As I happen to know a guy who's Kid is a college wrestler who I roll with here and there.

[Asia]

Ranger seem to like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTo7xErnnw&mode=related&search=
That is Matt Larsen a long time ago. Note the baby face and he is still a SSG.
This was at the begining of the program and has undergone some changes form there.

Marines doing Jiu Jitsu at Fleetweek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBfMR8kYVmc


As for the time frame in the clip, you do realize how little time they (the military) spend on H2H in basic Training right?
Yep. H2H is a common task but it generally on the back burner. Which might explain why SanHeChuan didn't see alot of it. My job right now is a Combative, MOUT, and Communications Instructor so I deal with it alot more than your average troop.

[Mr Punch]

HOLY SMOKES!!!!!

This technique used at :30 is one of the first techniques in my foundational Tai Tzu form!!

The USMC does Tai Tzu Whoo Hoooo!!!!! :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzVVKL_0FM


We do it as a take down, not really as a gun defense, but I'm going to play with it as such now!!! :p
You are either doing it, or not. There is no room for interpretive perspective here.****tard.

Still, as the ancient Chinese said, you can't explain the ocean to an idiot in a well. Or that he's an idiot. Or something.

[isol8d]

Yeah, you really know how to predict the results of an actual fight.


stones... glass houses... ducks... :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, actually I do...now.

Anyway, this has given me a thought. Since i really don't want to be a ground guy, and prefer the Chinese way of doing things, how much BJJ Ground type fighting do I really need to learn to escape the ground and get back into my game?

AND can this be done with Greco/Roman Wrestling? As I happen to know a guy who's Kid is a college wrestler who I roll with here and there.

Take up MMA and you can get both in the context you want, or take up submission grappling and add the strikes or take up both and then mix them, either way I would think that no less than 2 years of constant training in a class environment, less if private.

[1bad65]

stones... glass houses... ducks... :D



And I came on and said I was WRONG. Notice RD has not done that on anything, including his INCORRECT prediction.

I did predict the winner of the fight, yet I admitted Rudy did better than I expected him too.

[MasterKiller]

Yes, actually I do...now.

Anyway, this has given me a thought. Since i really don't want to be a ground guy, and prefer the Chinese way of doing things, how much BJJ Ground type fighting do I really need to learn to escape the ground and get back into my game? A couple of years probably. Earning a blue belt would probably be sufficient for most strikers to be familiar enough with the tactics.


AND can this be done with Greco/Roman Wrestling? As I happen to know a guy who's Kid is a college wrestler who I roll with here and there.

Maybe, maybe not. Wrestlers have awesome takedowns (better than BJJ), so you would quickly learn how not to get taken down. But, you wouldn't get much submission/guard/escape training probably.

[godzillakungfu]

You are either doing it, or not. There is no room for interpretive perspective here.


MCMAProgram is not BJJ heavy. He is doing it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Asia, are you able to add your Baji into your training? or is that something you have to do in off time?

[1bad65]

A couple of years probably. Earning a blue belt would probably be sufficient for most strikers to be familiar enough with the tactics.


I know both GSP and Liddell started fighting as Blue or White belts in BJJ. A Blue belt is adequate for 'the street' IMO.



Maybe, maybe not. Wrestlers have awesome takedowns (better than BJJ), so you would quickly learn how not to get taken down. But, you wouldn't get much submission/guard/escape training probably.


Correct also. I rolled with a new guy last week(less than 2 months BJJ) who is a **** good wrestler. In the scrambles he was an animal, but on his back he was bad. Even when in guard he would push off and try to force a scramble to improve his position. And when mounted he just tried to push off and muscle out. RD should train with the wrestler he knows, but also incorporate some BJJ, but that's just my opinion.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I guess my biggest weak point is when I am down and my opponent is on top. that is the area i think i should address first.

So far as take down avoidance I have some ability there. My system is chock full of throws and such, as well as striking, so I just need to keep doing what I do with all that.

I am in trouble when I am on bottom.

[Lucas]

The major difference between Military training and OUR personally sought after Civilian training:

Ego.

Pretty much sums it up. Most, if not all military's will use what works, regardless of the source it may stem from.

Chinese
German
Japanese
Russian

You name it, we have an influence from it in our military as i am sure every other country does as well.

all this style vs style in regards to military training is redundant at best.

A Military system will incorporate anything that it finds useful and put it into a training methodology and system to get the skills to their boys as fast and as solidly as they can.

MMA rules are the best rules to follow to allow you boys to fight and retain thier health, IE: minimum amount of injuries while still going full contact.

Its all really just a matter of stepping outside the box and using common sense.

[MasterKiller]

I am in trouble when I am on bottom.
Use Astro-Glide.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess my biggest weak point is when I am down and my opponent is on top. that is the area i think i should address first.

So far as take down avoidance I have some ability there. My system is chock full of throws and such, as well as striking, so I just need to keep doing what I do with all that.

I am in trouble when I am on bottom.

Everyone gets in trouble on the bottom, more so with MMA.
There are a few videos you can get your hands on to get you going.
Bas ruttens DVD's ( the video version of his big book of combat)
The Chute Boxing one of Shogun and Ninja
Even Sperry's Vale Tudo III
Probably more too.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am probablly going to get bas's book, and video for christmass this year.

[Lucas]

Use Astro-Glide.

LFMAO, dude MK, you are going to get me in trouble at work, they are starting to wonder why i ruin keyboards so often by soaking them in coffee...

[The Willow Sword]

they have several flavors of astro-glide too:)

lemon cherry grape fruit punch and Trail mix:D





on a seriousl note, though, i think that if CMA players see a certain weakness when up against a bjj or mma ground fighter, then i think it is time for the CMA players to start training to deal with the ground fighter in a very real way(and i am not talking about for the ring either) since yet again we seem to be divided on the rules of the ring and lack of rules on the street and the life and death situation, i think one can successfully start training IF they do a couple of years of BJJ and ground fighting just to get an idea. As Sun Tzu once wrote, Know your enemy". Train how he trains and then pick apart how you would deal with him.
its what the BJJ and MMA'ers do with TCMA players, then do it with them.

There problem solved:D:cool: TWS

[sanjuro_ronin]

RD, you should be training something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUuzOyceClk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMxOBfqs20&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuxQZ5g0AZs

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

They leave thier groins open too much. Fine for the ring, but I am not walking around with a cup on24/7

[sanjuro_ronin]

They leave thier groins open too much. Fine for the ring, but I am not walking around with a cup on24/7

LOL !!!
Dude, seriously.

Fly butt for the win !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7oeIjXs8A4

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

LOL!!! Gymnastics in the ring!!

I am too old to flip like that!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should try to find some old vale tudo matches, they allowed everything.

[1bad65]

You should try to find some old vale tudo matches, they allowed everything.


Groin attacks were allowed in the early UFCs too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Groin attacks were allowed in the early UFCs too.

Yep, it seems that right now, www.rioheroes.com shows VT matches with no rules other than a "warriors code" that "frowns" on groin and eye attacks, not illegal, just frowned upon.

[Lucas]

that seems kind silly to me.

so you can allow the strikes, but then it becomes "weak" to throw them, because its "frowned upon"

sounds like a way of making sure no one really throws the groin strikes, cause a frown is deadly....

[sanjuro_ronin]

that seems kind silly to me.

so you can allow the strikes, but then it becomes "weak" to throw them, because its "frowned upon"

sounds like a way of making sure no one really throws the groin strikes, cause a frown is deadly....

Its an honour system, don't do it to me and I won't do it to you.
Makes sense since the fighters wanna get some nookie after the fights :)

[Tomas]

Why is everybody obsessed with groin strikes???
There are so many easier and better targets....:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why is everybody obsessed with groin strikes???
There are so many easier and better targets....:confused:

Tell that to keith hackney and joe son !

:D

[Lucas]

why not just make it illegal then.

it seems to contratictory to me to say "ya we allow groin/eye/throat shots, but we look down on it cause its not honorable, so we dont really use them"

[MSphinx]

For hardcore TMA tournaments, check out Chaos Madmax. Headbutts, groin strikes, throws, takedowns, and eye gouging are allowed provided particpants wear goggles. Hands are wrapped, but special fights are bare knuckle.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/knockdown-karate/2938-karate-blood-fight.html

[MSphinx]

why not just make it illegal then.

it seems to contratictory to me to say "ya we allow groin/eye/throat shots, but we look down on it cause its not honorable, so we dont really use them"

Anyone with a groin should know it's not honourable. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

why not just make it illegal then.

it seems to contratictory to me to say "ya we allow groin/eye/throat shots, but we look down on it cause its not honorable, so we dont really use them"

Of course they use them, why do you think their hair is all cut short?
its just a fair warning, use it at your own risk.

I recall my second ( I thinkit was my second, maybe 3rd) VT match, the guy kept trying to kick in the groin so when I drilled him off one of his attempt and he went down and I got on him, I drop 3 good knees to HIS groin, just like you lay out some carpet, that took the fight out of him quick and I finished him right after that.
I never would have pummled his "baby maker" like that if he hadn't of gone sausage kicking.

[Lucas]

Thats a given.

So why allow them in your venue, if really, you dont want them....

makes no sense to me. If i say "groin shots are allowed" and you get my groin, i wont think you dis honorable, Ill instead think, I need to protect my groin better since groin shots are allowed.

if its in the rules honor has nothing to do with it.

its like saying its dis honorable for a man on second to steal third.....

[Lucas]

Of course they use them, why do you think their hair is all cut short?
its just a fair warning, use it at your own risk.

I recall my second ( I thinkit was my second, maybe 3rd) VT match, the guy kept trying to kick in the groin so when I drilled him off one of his attempt and he went down and I got on him, I drop 3 good knees to HIS groin, just like you lay out some carpet, that took the fight out of him quick and I finished him right after that.
I never would have pummled his "baby maker" like that if he hadn't of gone sausage kicking.

rofl. thats a funny story man.

[sanjuro_ronin]

rofl. thats a funny story man.

Looking back, yes it was.

[Lucas]

For hardcore TMA tournaments, check out Chaos Madmax. Headbutts, groin strikes, throws, takedowns, and eye gouging are allowed provided particpants wear goggles. Hands are wrapped, but special fights are bare knuckle.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/knockdown-karate/2938-karate-blood-fight.html

Thanks for the link.

Man you gotta love the Japanese for this though, at least thier "high level" instructors dont deem it past themselves to get in the ring and beat on each other still.

[Lucas]

i dig that shot of dude wearing his white belt fighting a 4th dan

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for the link.

Man you gotta love the Japanese for this though, at least thier "high level" instructors dont deem it past themselves to get in the ring and beat on each other still.

fighting is fighting bro, we never outgrow that :)

[Lucas]

fighting is fighting bro, we never outgrow that :)

ya, just compared to some "TMA" out there, at least there has been and will always be a healthy outlet of TMA teachers in japan who still throw down.

you just dont see many TCMA teachers doing this as well, aside from sanshou/sanda.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya, just compared to some "TMA" out there, at least there has been and will always be a healthy outlet of TMA teachers in japan who still throw down.

you just dont see many TCMA teachers doing this as well, aside from sanshou/sanda.

I am sure they do, just no one knows about it...:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Going back to the military thing for just one second, a buddy of mine sent me this about the elite of the military police in Brasil:

http://veja.abril.com.br/vejarj/060607/capa.html

Of note is this part:
" Na fase final, há o teste de luta, no qual o aluno enfrenta até cinco adversários ao mesmo tempo. "Convidamos lutadores profissionais de vale-tudo e jiu-jítsu para enfrentar os candidatos", diz o comandante Pinheiro Neto. Segundo um ex-participante, alguns alunos saem desfigurados do confronto. "

basically, in the final stage there is a fighting test where the recruit must face 5 attackers and they invited pro fighters from Vale Tudo and Jiu-jitsu, soem recruits get disfigured.

[Phrost]

Going back to the military thing for just one second, a buddy of mine sent me this about the elite of the military police in Brasil:

http://veja.abril.com.br/vejarj/060607/capa.html

Of note is this part:
" Na fase final, há o teste de luta, no qual o aluno enfrenta até cinco adversários ao mesmo tempo. "Convidamos lutadores profissionais de vale-tudo e jiu-jítsu para enfrentar os candidatos", diz o comandante Pinheiro Neto. Segundo um ex-participante, alguns alunos saem desfigurados do confronto. "

basically, in the final stage there is a fighting test where the recruit must face 5 attackers and they invited pro fighters from Vale Tudo and Jiu-jitsu, soem recruits get disfigured.

Holy crap, I can actually read that.

Man, I guess I'm getting better at Spanish if I can understand Portuguese.

What? This thread's already derailed anyway. Besa mi culo!

[NJM]

MAP thinks that it could have done better in the fight:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72518

[Phrost]

MAP thinks that it could have done better in the fight:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72518

"MAP" has grappling instructors at their meets who teach how to collar choke someone from under mount.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hmmm, sounds like a technique that would be good to fill a hole in my system.

[1bad65]

Hmmm, sounds like a technique that would be good to fill a hole in my system.


Go right ahead and learn it. It will fit in nicely with your theory-based VHS/DVD 'training'.

[Phrost]

Hmmm, sounds like a technique that would be good to fill a hole in my system.

So the goal of your training is to get your arms broken?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought it was a choke to be applied to the guy on top, when you are on the bottom.

I am week when I am on the bottom, so I am looking for ways to improve my game there.

[1bad65]

Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought it was a choke to be applied to the guy on top, when you are on the bottom.

I am week when I am on the bottom, so I am looking for ways to improve my game there.


Oh boy :rolleyes:

[Phrost]

Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought it was a choke to be applied to the guy on top, when you are on the bottom.

I am week when I am on the bottom, so I am looking for ways to improve my game there.

No, this is where you are the one mounted, on your back, and reaching up to grab the other guy's collar.

You pretty much never want to put your arms in that position unless you're 100% confident the other guy has never even seen an armbar.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought it was a choke to be applied to the guy on top, when you are on the bottom.

I am week when I am on the bottom, so I am looking for ways to improve my game there.

Anytime you are mounted and reach high you are asking for your arms to be broken.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

AHHH, that is what I thought.


Based on the way I interpreted it, I thought someone had a good way to avoid that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anytime you are mounted and reach high you are asking for your arms to be broken.


IF you have control of his hips ( Guard), IF you have control of one of his arms ( over hook), IF you have a grib on his lapel and are able to do the choke ( slip your arm over and under) and still maintain his body close enough to controland far enough to get space to do the choke, THEN it is a viable option.

As you can see by the qty of "ifs" it is not a high percentage move unless there is a good skill level difference.

[MasterKiller]

IF you have control of his hips ( Guard), IF you have control of one of his arms ( over hook), IF you have a grib on his lapel and are able to do the choke ( slip your arm over and under) and still maintain his body close enough to NOT to get arm barred and far enough to get space to do the choke, THEN it is a viable option

Well, you can't use guard to control his hips when you are mounted...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, you can't use guard to control his hips when you are mounted...

You have obviously never meet Tania.
:D

Notice the "IF" part...

[Knifefighter]

IF you have control of his hips ( Guard), IF you have control of one of his arms ( over hook), IF you have a grib on his lapel and are able to do the choke ( slip your arm over and under) and still maintain his body close enough to NOT to get arm barred and far enough to get space to do the choke, THEN it is a viable option.

I thought you said you were a judo black belt and had at least a year of BJJ training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought you said you were a judo black belt and had at least a year of BJJ training.

I though you said you knew how to fight ?
Maybe you do, but your reading comprehension sucks :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, I see the confusion in my post, sorry, my bad.

I was trying to explain that the cross choke is only viable from the guard but my wording, like my lower intestine, was full of crap and the arm bar reference was misplaced and irrelevant., like Dale's stock shares in the "hair club for men".
:D

[OsirisBJJ]

How is that a low percentage move? If you're in guard with no grips and your opponent has posture, EVERYTHING is low. Its not a bunch of "ifs" but simple and necessary prerequisites to do ANYTHING whether it be sub grappling, BJJ or MMA.

[NJM]

You have obviously never meet Tania.
:D

O no you Di-ent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

O no you Di-ent.

Oh yes I did !

[Dale Dugas]

Ah, I see the confusion in my post, sorry, my bad.

I was trying to explain that the cross choke is only viable from the guard but my wording, like my lower intestine, was full of crap and the arm bar reference was misplaced and irrelevant., like Dale's stock shares in the "hair club for men".
:D

Nahh, I own stock in Gillette...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nahh, I own stock in Gillette...

:D

You know what george costanza does with his shiney dome....

[boshea]

:D

You know what george costanza does with his shiney dome....

I don't know what he does with it, but whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it's not an image that I need in my head. :p

[unkokusai]

And after all this bull**** rudy is back to his old tricks anyway...



just sad....

[jmd161]

And after all this bull**** rudy is back to his old tricks anyway...



just sad....


I thought this thread was geared towards he wouldn't go thru with the fight?



So, he was not only suppose to not go thru with the fight, but it was supposed to some how change him too?:confused:


:D


jeff:)

[unkokusai]

That's right. Some of us thought he would bail again, but he didn't and he got the credit due for that without condition. But you would think that after going through all that and after losing quite definitively despite rhetoric about killing and maiming and ruining people for life and other JFS-isms, that at least some tiny bit of shame might encourage some perspective and humility. Even pro fighters who get paid to ramp up the drama before a fight don't crawl off the mat after getting KTFO in the first round and immediately resume the same trash-talk. It just doesn't make sense. I would hope that somewhere in there there is a normal human being. I mean, does he go to the grocery store and start screaming at people, "Grraaa! I will fvcking kill you if you don't have Honey Bunches of Oats in stock! Graaaaa! You are so dead! Graaaa! You'll never be normal again! Graaaa! My kungfu fist will break you! Graaaaaaa!" before being taken down and beaten into submission by the stock boy?

[Mr Punch]

lmao :D :D :D

funny

[GeneChing]

We've had other internet challenges. This maybe our first Tik Tok challenge...



TikTok
Milk crate challenge has doctors warning it’s ‘worse than falling from a ladder’ (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/25/milk-crate-challenge-tiktok-doctors-warnings?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1)
Experts say dangerous injuries can occur as videos of people falling off precariously stacked crates go viral on social media
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6ad8f4fa366561f028422df94229113d0c6bc59f/1665_2249_2253_1352/master/2253.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&
‘Perhaps enjoy a nice glass of 2% and return all those crates to the grocery store?’ the FDA said of the challenge. Photograph: Tim Hussin/The Guardian
Maya Yang
Wed 25 Aug 2021 10.54 EDT

The latest challenge to take the internet by storm involves milk crates, balance and some painful falls.

In the milk crate challenge, which recently started on TikTok, participants take on a set of milk crates precariously stacked in the shape of a pyramid, attempt to climb to the top and then back down again without toppling over.

As videos of people falling painfully go viral on social media and rack up millions of views, doctors across the US are coming out to warn people of the dangerous injuries that can occur.

“It’s perhaps even worse than falling from a ladder,” said Shawn Anthony, an orthopedic surgeon at Mount Sinai hospital in New York, to the Washington Post. “It’s very difficult to brace yourself from the falls I’ve seen in these videos. They’re putting their joints at an even higher risk for injury,” he added.

With many hospitals across the US already overwhelmed by Covid-19 patients and running short on space and staff, health departments are urging people to reconsider their choices before taking on the challenge.

George Gantsoudes, a Virginia-based orthopedic surgeon, wrote on Twitter: “The orthopaedic surgeries required to fix problems caused by this may fall under the umbrella of ‘elective surgeries’.”

On Monday, the Baltimore city health department tweeted: “With COVID-19 hospitalizations rising around the country, please check with your local hospital to see if they have a bed available for you, before attempting the #milkcratechallenge.”

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) also weighed in on the challenge after comedian Conan O’Brien joked how he needed federal officials to grant permission to the challenge before attempting it, playing off the FDA’s approval of Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine earlier this week.

“Waiting for FDA approval before I take the Milk Crate Challenge,” O’Brien tweeted on Monday. The FDA responded shortly after, writing: “Although we regulate milk, we can’t recommend you try that. Perhaps enjoy a nice glass of 2% and return all those crates to the grocery store?”

The milk crate challenge is the latest of a slew of dares that have gone viral on TikTok. In recent months, the video-sharing platform has seen a rise of dangerous challenges including the blackout challenge, where young people are encouraged to hold their breath until they pass out, and the Benadryl challenge, where young people intentionally consume large amounts of the antihistamine to induce hallucinations.

In a statement about the most recent challenge, a TikTok spokesperson said: “TikTok prohibits content that promotes or glorifies dangerous acts, and we remove videos and redirect searches to our community guidelines to discourage such content. We encourage everyone to exercise caution in their behavior whether online or offline.”