An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity

[Lucas]

I am not a grappler, yet, but i have a question for those of you that are.

now this is coming from the standpoint the person on the bottom is a grappler.

when the fighters were moved, with rudy on bottom, before they were moved, rudy had his legs wrapped around anthony's trunk.

after they were moved rudy's right leg was then pinned by anthony's left.

does that make a difference, technically, as to what a good grappler COULD have done, assuming it was a good grappler who would be able to take advantage of the positioning.

[Anthony_ATT]

Was that a slip or did you feel you were in trouble there?

I'd have to look at the video again, but I was rocked earlier, and kept going for the double leg, I think Rudy pushed me off balance and I fell backwards.

I was in trouble from the 2nd stuff of the shoot till I got Rudy on his back, where my GnP took over.

My neck hurts bad, from Rudy's punches, feels kinda like whiplash.

[specialed]

Specialed you do have a point there. Anthony looked like he might have been in trouble there.

Why was the fight stopped and restarted at that point?


thanks for the new sig knifefighter!
in a no rules situation, that would have been the end. this is not a real fight. its a highly regulated sparring session. and please, please, please do not tell me that you "Mr. Fight Expert" think that either of these guys are anything other than poor fighters.

anthony, sorry, no video for you. get your butt back in training. learn how to take down properly. learn how to fight in the clinch and not rely on your bullshido rush. oh, and try not to let your highly regulated sparring session against and inexperinced loudmouth chump lull you into false confidence: without those rules, you'd have been thumped real hard. drama queen. larper.

[Knifefighter]

Also, do you guys work setting up your takedowns with strikes or do you separate the striking and the grappling work?

[specialed]

Also, do you guys work setting up your takedowns with strikes or do you separate the striking and the grappling work?


exactly. a very good question.

[Anthony_ATT]

Also, do you guys work setting up your takedowns with strikes or do you separate the striking and the grappling work?

I should have put both together. I got hit hard, and fell back to my training first, which is grappling.

There's a great quote...

"In a fight, we never rise to our expectations, but rather fall back to our training".

It happened.

[Anthony_ATT]

thanks for the new sig knifefighter!
in a no rules situation, that would have been the end. this is not a real fight. its a highly regulated sparring session. and please, please, please do not tell me that you "Mr. Fight Expert" think that either of these guys are anything other than poor fighters.

anthony, sorry, no video for you. get your butt back in training. learn how to take down properly. learn how to fight in the clinch and not rely on your bullshido rush. oh, and try not to let your highly regulated sparring session against and inexperinced loudmouth chump lull you into false confidence: without those rules, you'd have been thumped real hard. drama queen. larper.

So, no video, no history of fighting, but yet you can judge?

You lost all crediablity.

Kindly STFU.

[specialed]

So, no video, no history of fighting, but yet you can judge?

You lost all crediablity.

Kindly STFU.

i have plenty of both. however, i won't allow you to cheapen what i've accomplished. drama queen larper crappler bullshido rush rules dependant

[Anthony_ATT]

i have plenty of both. however, i won't allow you to cheapen what i've accomplished. drama queen larper crappler bullshido rush rules dependant

Your nick suits you perfectly.

Are you looking for your own thousand page thread? :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I might have to give Rudy some props for not being Springerized.

Reply]
I was talking to Rudy quite a bit in the weeks leading up to this, and one of, if not his biggest concern, was keeping this honorable and not letting it slip into the springer gutter. That is why he worked so hard to get a venue with a ring.

He really had some hurdles, set backs and problems to constantly over come to get this event to actually happen (like having great difficulty getting the gym owner to communicate with him, and getting the waiver issue settled). The whole time he was working as hard as he could to get this thing going, and done right.

In the mean time, he had to deal with idiots constantly yapping like a broken record accusing him of setting it up to duck the fight, blatantly attacking him, and twisting his every attempt to keep this form falling through into some sort of attempt to duck the fight...when he was in reality dong everything in his power to make this happen.

To be honest, One specific individual here owes Rudy a major apology and some sort of atonement for his immature, and relentless childish behavior.

He didn't do a bad job of punishing Anthony and keeping him off when Anthony worked for the takedowns.

Reply]
Rudy trained really hard for this fight. Prior to this, he had all those issues with his knees, so all things considered, I think he did a good job as well.

I have to say Also that Anthony looked much better than his last fight as well. He looks thinner, stronger, and I see an improvement in his footwork and mobility too.

[FatherDog]

at 0:50 anthony would have been toast if there were no rules. (who's larping?).

LOL. If the first eight shots didn't finish him, what makes you think any hypothetical shots delivered there would have?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I thought they were fighting under really minimal rules anyway?

[Lucas]

I am not a grappler, yet, but i have a question for those of you that are.

now this is coming from the standpoint the person on the bottom is a grappler.

when the fighters were moved, with rudy on bottom, before they were moved, rudy had his legs wrapped around anthony's trunk.

after they were moved rudy's right leg was then pinned by anthony's left.

does that make a difference, technically, as to what a good grappler COULD have done, assuming it was a good grappler who would be able to take advantage of the positioning.

ahem.....im still kinda curious what some of you think. :p

[FatherDog]

I thought they were fighting under really minimal rules anyway?

The rules were "no eyes, no groin, and respect the tap"

The fight was restarted twice to keep the fighters from falling out of the ring; once when Rudy was on top, the other time when he was on bottom.

The first time, Anthony was already getting to his feet as the action was stopped, so it's questionable if it had any effect on the fight at all.

In any case, specialed is a retard.

[johnnycache]

I'm glad rudy actually showed up. I've long been of the opinion that it's a lot harder to build up all this drama when you actually show up and spar/train with somebody - that's half the point of bullshido throwdowns.

To all the haters on both sides that are going to come out of the woodwork now and talk about how anthony needs to learn the greco clinch and a nice uchi-mata and how if Rudy made a james bond movie it would be called The Sprawl is Not Enough, and what if they fought in a dyson sphere and if Rudy was a real monkey he could have chewed his way out of mount and what if what if what if coulda shoulda woulda, all I have to say to you is this:

“Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full
But only one is there who knows
And he's the man who fights the bull.”

[FatherDog]

ahem.....im still kinda curious what some of you think. :p

Actually, if you look closely at the video, before the fight was restarted, Rudy did /not/ have both legs wrapped around - he just has the leg closest to the camera wrapped; the other was trapped, just like it was when they restarted.

Even if it wasn't, it was still immaterial to the fight, because the first thing that happens when they restart is that Rudy frees that leg.

[jmd161]

BTW, Jeff...

I might have to give Rudy some props for not being Springerized.

He didn't do a bad job of punishing Anthony and keeping him off when Anthony worked for the takedowns.

I can't say I know anything about if Rudy has some mat training or not. I can back Anthony up that he hits like a mule kick. You don't expect it from Rudy by looking at him. He's much more solid than he looks also.

Rudy and I go back some yrs, it's been yrs sice we've sparred also. Atleast 6 since i've been with my new sifu. I never doubted he would show, that's the only real point i was making. When Rudy and I sparred it was strickly stand up had it been the same against Anthony i'm sure the fight would've gone much differently.

You have to fight differently when you have to defense against the takedown. If you're not use to it, it can throw off your whole fight. Props to Anthony and Rudy for settleing it like men and not taking it futher. I wouldn't mind seeing some of those that wanted this so much getting into the ring now and fighting themselves!!

I'm sure non will step up though:rolleyes:

jeff:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have to fight differently when you have to defense against the takedown. If you're not use to it, it can throw off your whole fight. Props to Anthony and Rudy for settleing it like men and not taking it futher. I wouldn't mind seeing some of those that wanted this so much getting into the ring now and fighting themselves!!

I'm sure non will step up though

Reply]
Agreed.

[Lucas]

Actually, if you look closely at the video, before the fight was restarted, Rudy did /not/ have both legs wrapped around - he just has the leg closest to the camera wrapped; the other was trapped, just like it was when they restarted.

Even if it wasn't, it was still immaterial to the fight, because the first thing that happens when they restart is that Rudy frees that leg.

ah, ya i see that now, and that makes sense.


now im curious to see if rudy plans on taking up any bjj or some such.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think if Rudy were to spend the next year adding some BJJ to his arsenal, and more time sparring with his standup, he would probably do much better next time...although, I am sure Anthony would improve in skill as well.

[1bad65]

About the leg being pinned, to a good grappler it makes little difference. You are still in a guard position. For mma I prefer the open guard myself.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

About the leg being pinned, to a good grappler it makes little difference. You are still in a guard position. For mma I prefer the open guard myself.

Reply]
YOU need to stop talking, and start groveling and begging for forgiveness.

[1bad65]

The Hell I do. I gave him the props I said I would. Nothing more, nothing less. I will say this, and I said it before the fight, I bet Rudy comes out a better man through all this. I bet he stops challenging people. At least with me he has NOTHING to prove anymore. Notice I have not once took a shot at him for losing.

Not to be a jerk, but as someone from Bullshido said, Rudy did what he promised to do. Does my boss everyday thank me for coming in on time? No, because it is expected from me.

The biggest(and only so far) **** has been specialed, IMO.

[jmd161]

After that second stop, it looked to me like Rudy might have gassed? He seemed kinda tired when he got up and then flopped down. He might have been too hyped and gassed himself...




jeff:)

[monji112000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0

wow nice fight.
Anthony_ATT congrads

rudy's saving grace was his size. Its plainly clear he has no experience in wrestling of any kind. I give him props for showing up and fighting. I was hoping for a few tiger/crane /monkey fists.. but good clip anyway.

[boshea]

at 0:50 anthony would have been toast if there were no rules. (who's larping?).


Just to be consistent with your reasoning, if it had been a "real" fight it wouldn't have been in a ring, so there wouldn't have been a ring to fall off of.

This thing is over. Both parties are being civil and giving credit where it is due, while admitting their own shortcomings. What better outcome could you ask for here? No need to stir the pot any more than it's already been stirred.

[NJM]

After that second stop, it looked to me like Rudy might have gassed? He seemed kinda tired when he got up and then flopped down. He might have been too hyped and gassed himself...


That's the same impression I got.

[boshea]

i have plenty of both. however, i won't allow you to cheapen what i've accomplished. drama queen larper crappler bullshido rush rules dependant

Why would it cheapen what you've accomplished? This is a martial arts forum, and we are all interested in seeing good fights. You would get nothing but respect for posting good videos here of you fighting.

[boshea]

“Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full
But only one is there who knows
And he's the man who fights the bull.”

Nice quote from Sam Sheridan's book (not sure who originally said it). Very apropos to the occasion JohnnyCache.

[Anthony_ATT]

Yao Sing stopped by as promised btw!

Was great meeting him though I was only able to talk for a few minutes.

[unkokusai]

Does mr rudy know how to wrestle?



Quite evidently not. Perhaps this will convince him to address that shortcoming.

[Mr Punch]

Good fight. I've seen much worse.

Congrats to Anthony, props to Rudy.

There were lots of things we could all say about what went wrong, but then we'd just sound like a specialed kid.

[Mr Punch]

Quite evidently not. Perhaps this will convince him to address that shortcoming.Wasn't it you who said that anyone who starts wrestling in adulthood would never make a good wrestler? Just out of interest, I really can't remember...

[MSphinx]

Great fight! Class act by all involved.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well then...

Well done by both of you guys, you put the egos aside and did a good fight.
There are a few here that owe Rudy an apology, not only did he NOT duck, but he took the fight to Anthony for better part of the match.

Yes that pace is a "rookie/lack of ring experience" thing, but nevertheless, he stepped up when everyone was saying he was gonna duck.

Anthony took the shots and came back for more, great determination and heart.

My favorite part?
What appears to be the " peace making" at the end.

Respect to you both.

[Mr Punch]

LOL. If the first eight shots didn't finish him, what makes you think any hypothetical shots delivered there would have?Bollocks. While specialed does indeed seem special, it's not the shots that you weathered that are dangerous (other than in very real cumulative damage terms), but the next one.

You never know what angle it's gonna come at (and a subtly different angle at any one point, depending on how your brain's recovering from the last one could make all the difference) and KOs are not exact science.

Anthony has already said that Rudy's shots hurt him like whiplash: well, it may have just been the next one that got his brain to shut down and go 'Ah, **** it.'

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

rudy's saving grace was his size. Its plainly clear he has no experience in wrestling of any kind. I give him props for showing up and fighting. I was hoping for a few tiger/crane /monkey fists.. but good clip anyway.

Reply]
Yeah, Anthony was a full head+ taller than Rudy. It looked like Rudy only came to his shoulders. He definatly had a lot of heart going against an opponent that much bigger than him.

As for Kung Fu, some of the punch Kick combos were right out of the forms. Considering Rudy and I do the same style (Different branches), it was really nice to see recognized techniques actully being put to use almost verbetum as seen in the form.

Rudy had mentioned to me that he was going to use some Monkey punching in this fight, but due to the film quality, it's really hard to see the difference between a regular punch, and the Money strikes.

Also, the way he was twisting Anthony to try and neutralize his shots is Kung Fu technology too. It was nice to see he was able to stop so many shots and render them ineffective like that. Considering Anthony had such a size, and weight advantage, Rudy has got to be a pretty strong little Monkey to have made that work.

[Asia]

Also, the way he was twisting Anthony to try and neutralize his shots is Kung Fu technology too. It was nice to see he was able to stop so many shots and render them ineffective like that. Considering Anthony had such a size, and weight advantage, Rudy has got to be a pretty strong little Monkey to have made that work.

Not really. Anthony's shots were sloppy, probably due to him getting rocked early on, against a better shooter I don't Rudy would have gone down quicker.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Size and strength DO matter though.

[The Willow Sword]

Size and strength DO matter though.

They only MATTER when you are in a controlled event with rule sets and waivers and whatnot.

Peace,TWS

[1bad65]

Size and strength DO matter though.

To an extent, but if there is a big difference in skill it has little effect. Osiris was 80 pounds smaller then JFS and he took JFS down with his first shot. Also, Osiris never absorbed a single blow. Keep in mind that Osiris is a blue belt and Anthony is a white belt, so at least in BJJ Osiris is more skilled.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You can't count the JFS /Osiris fight. That was just two baffoons scuffling.

JFS didn't even attempt to defend the take down, and he also didn't seem to launch any sort of a counter attack either (so of course Osiris never took a shot...Duuuh!). He just seemed to want to restrain and nothing more. I think he really did not want to fight out in the open in the front of the parking lot. He wanted to be in the back where there was 360 coverage.

As for Osiris, He threw a half baked side kick that failed DESPITE hitting his opponent blind in the back. All he really did was tackle JFS, and got stuck in a restraint for a little bit. He "Tried" to punch, but his punches were about as effective as his pathetic Kick.

So, to recap, JFS/Osiris = Two morons who had completely ineffectual game plans and showed no skill on either side. The whole debacle was one huge pathetic mess full of immatureity and total lack of honor on all sides. EVERYONE made themselves look bad...like Jerry Springer Trailer trash at best.

Rudy/Anthony = Two fighters that showed a lot of heart, good effective technique, and put on a good fight. Both fighters conducted them selves in an honorable, and sportsman like fashion. Both came off looking good regardless of the fight results.

[OsirisBJJ]

Who decides that the best way to restrain a BJJer is from on the ground under mount? If he'd pulled guard and defended himself, sure, but all he did was set up armbars and get himself bitten. Also, his objection to the location disappeared as soon as I let him up. Springer didn't defend himself because HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW. If he'd won, would you be explaining that I was just blocking with my face?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He didn't need to defend anything, you hit & Kick like a girl.

[OsirisBJJ]

What are we? 12?

[1bad65]

You're wrong on the Os/JFS fight. It looked exactly like what happens when a BJJ guy has a fight with a guy who has no clue what to do on the ground. Thats one of the things newbies to BJJ usually do, latch on tight when in a bad position. I was taught that generally in BJJ you want to be 'tight' when in a good position to easier maintain the position, and you want space when in a bad position so you have room to escape the bad position.

[1bad65]

He didn't need to defend anything, you hit & Kick like a girl.


For the 800th time, Os hit hard enough to make JFS quit. PERIOD

[banditshaw]

After all the build up. Props to Rudy stepping up.
Congrats to Anthony for the win.

Good display of sportsmanship and all round class after the fight. I'm glad there was no unneeded drama before and after.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It also looked exactly like two kids who can't land a good strike to save thier lives.


Face it, the JFS/Osiris fight was a scuffle that highlighted the fact that both can't fight thier way out of a wet paper bag.

[Phrost]

I think RD is just bucking for an aѕѕ beating to make it a nice round 0 and 3 vs Bullshido.

[bodhitree]

He didn't need to defend anything, you hit & Kick like a girl.


and i presume you'd perform better

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, absolutely. Although I am not the shining example of fighting prowess either....I am however aware of that fact. The other two apparently are not.

[OsirisBJJ]

I'm a blue belt. That means I can grapple. I out grappled the guy. I'm failing to see the problem here.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, you didn't. You tussled with him and showed you are an effectual fighter...especially when not a SINGLE strike you threw had any effect what so ever.

Your grappling skills must be focused on biting. Other than a weak takedown that would not have worked on anyone else, biting seemed the only effective thing you did.

Sorry to burst your self delusional bubble there, but you aren't much of a fighter either.

[Phrost]

I'm a blue belt. That means I can grapple. I out grappled the guy. I'm failing to see the problem here.

The problem is that RD is weighing in on grappling without having any idea how to grapple.

At this point I don't care if CMA stylists magically discover a lost lineage going back to 1890's Brazil; whatever it takes to get you people to recognize the importance of alive training in all ranges...

I mean, I know it must be hard to roll around on the ground in floppy pants and sashes, but come on, your costumes shouldn't be more important than your fighting ability.

Wake up, swallow your pride, and don't let the next 5/10/20/30 years of your training all be invalidated by someone who's only been doing serious grappling training for a year or two.

[1bad65]

Notice how everyone here(including Rudy and Anthony) has acted with class and maturity EXCEPT for RD and Specialed.

[unkokusai]

Maybe he needs to borrow your videos so he can learn to squat really, really low and take a picture of himself? Now THAT proves you are a badass!

[1bad65]

...especially when not a SINGLE strike you threw had any effect what so ever.


Time #801: He hit JFS hard enough to make him quit.

[unkokusai]

All due respect having been given and all that, rudy still hasn't taken the 'tombstone' for Anthony off his website. That's not looking too good.

[bodhitree]

Yes, absolutely. Although I am not the shining example of fighting prowess either....I am however aware of that fact. The other two apparently are not.


everything you write about martial arts makes me post a :rolleyes:

everything you post about women makes me post :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Phrost]

All due respect having been given and all that, rudy still hasn't taken the 'tombstone' for Anthony off his website. That's not looking too good.

He's probably dealing with a headache right now. Anthony once "gingerly" dropped his knee on my chest in KoB and my head turned purple. I'd hate to think what it felt like taking one of those to the head.

Hell, I think there's a picture of it somewhere...

http://www.bullshido.net/images/phrost-purplehead.jpg

[OsirisBJJ]

Lets put this bull**** about I can't grapple to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIu8uzwU8oI

[Asia]

RD, with all due respect you are completely wrong about the Os/JFS fight. Please understand that. Os would out grapple you easily and being one who isn't versed in that skill there is little you can judge about it. Os controlled the fight and did exactly as his level of training would dictate. He beat JFS, period.

[Asia]

Size and strength DO matter though.

Yes they do but skill and experience trumps that.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That depends on if the skill exceeds the mass or not.

[Mr Punch]

God D`MN! SOMEONE PLEASE fight RD next!

Annoying twat!

[bodhitree]

Lets put this bull**** about I can't grapple to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIu8uzwU8oI

it's only rd saying that, just ignore him. Your g n p wasn't as pretty as fedor's, but whose is?

[Yao Sing]

Dang, I got back to my daughter's place in Palm Beach and she didn't have an Internet connection. And I didn't bring my laptop so no early results.

Anyhow, as you all can see now it was a great fight. Went down pretty much how I expected regardless of what either one claimed they were going to do to the other.

I suspected Anthony didn't have the hands to really hang with Rudy and I felt the same about Rudy's ground game compared to Anthony.

Rudy seemed to handle the height and weight difference real well but Anthony was able to weather the storm until he got it to the ground where he was more comfortable. I think he wanted to trade blows until he saw what Rudy had and did the smart thing by getting it to the ground where he has the edge.

I would have thought Rudy would have spent the last 3 months on groundwork but I think his confidence in his punch clouded his judgment. Nice if it works but you have to have a plan B.

Not to take anything away from Anthony but it's my opinion Rudy defeated himself. I think one of the biggest tools you can have in a fight is having been there in the past. I get the feeling that was lacking at Rudy's end. He didn't know where to go in an unfamiliar situation.

[Yao Sing]

God D`MN! SOMEONE PLEASE fight RD next!

Annoying twat!

I get the impression that's what he attempting to provoke.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rudy seemed to handle the height and weight difference real well but Anthony was able to weather the storm until he got it to the ground where he was more comfortable. I think he wanted to trade blows until he saw what Rudy had and did the smart thing by getting it to the ground where he has the edge.

Excellent read, Rudy seemed to even man-handle Anthony at certain points to "shut down" the attempted takedown.

I think it may well have been a case of "over confidence" in his striking like you said, according to Anthony, Rudy certainly hits hard, it just that fighting a grappler tends to screw up your punches unless you spend alot of time training striking on good grapplers.

[godzillakungfu]

Rudy,

Thanks for manning up. Glad you proved many of us wrong. I'm also glad you showed that there are some Kung fuers that can strike hard. I hope you take this loss (win for everyone concerning respect/class wise) for what it was, a learning experience.

Adding a ground game won't corrupt your kung fu. I hope people will come away from this escapade and learn that little fact.

Good job Anthony.

[Lucas]

in regards to the JFS/Osiris deal.

i think both sides of this are right, in a way.

I would certainly like to see JFS vs. Osiris, toe to toe in a ring. But we all know JFS isnt going to man up for that.

but that would really be the only way to get a straight view of these guys fighting. Cant really pull of a flying sneak attack jump kick to someones back in a ring after the ref calls "fight".

but anyhow, I dont think that whole ordeal shows too much other than what it shows. No supereb skill from either side, it was a scuffle that ended as fast as it started. that is all.




The problem is that RD is weighing in on grappling without having any idea how to grapple.

At this point I don't care if CMA stylists magically discover a lost lineage going back to 1890's Brazil; whatever it takes to get you people to recognize the importance of alive training in all ranges...

I mean, I know it must be hard to roll around on the ground in floppy pants and sashes, but come on, your costumes shouldn't be more important than your fighting ability.

Wake up, swallow your pride, and don't let the next 5/10/20/30 years of your training all be invalidated by someone who's only been doing serious grappling training for a year or two.


This is an important post right here. Here is my opinion on this matter:

All in due time. The CMA community at large is being taught by those with seniority in the community. The current generation of teachers.

People, like myself, who are inolved in TMA are not blind. There are many who are, yes, but there ARE those who are not.

It is the individuals who have the open eyes that will decide the not-to-distant future of CMA in regards to modern sport combat.

Once my generation, and those close to it, are in the rolls of coaches and teachers, you will see a change.

You can already see this in todays market. Not on a large scale, but certainly to some degree.

It's a natural state of evolution, call it natural selection. The strong will prevail, the weak will perish. Those of the CMA community that are of the strong will understand the need to incorporate influences outside the realm of their current studies, IE: strictly CMA.

Now whether this comes under the guise of CMA incorporating modern training methodologies, or TMA material being more pevelant in a modern sport setting, its hard to say.

I am of the mindset that this will develop both ways.

If you look around, this change is starting to happen, be it small and not very noticable, if you look for it, it is there.

[Phrost]

If you look around, this change is starting to happen, be it small and not very noticable, if you look for it, it is there.

Yeah, maybe. But since people right now are getting ripped off and wasting years of their lives pursuing sub-optimal training methods under the illusion that they're actually learning how to fight, the occasional shoe to the aѕѕ via gong sau to help the winds of change blow that much harder, is a very good thing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but anyhow, I dont think that whole ordeal shows too much other than what it shows. No supereb skill from either side, it was a scuffle that ended as fast as it started. that is all.

Reply]
This is pretty much my whole point.

As for the evolution of CMA, I think it's already evolved as much as it needs to be. It just needs to actually be practiced properly IEthe old school way before teaching endless sequences of forms replaced actual fight training.

The only minor issue is that back in those days people stayed off the ground because it is a dangerous place to be, and it was not very likely your opponent would follow you there even if he slammed yoou there in the first place. Even if he did, he stood on his feet and kicked you while you were down, rather than go down with you. Today however, this is pretty much forgotten, because of the popularity of ring sports.

So, that all having been said, if Kung Fu players are going to enter the ring, they need to add a little ground grappling to thier arsenal. That aspects just not covered in arts that had to face serious threats of bodily harm from opponents who were probably armed with some sort of a knife...or backed up by thier surrounding companions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One day, someone will explain to me why one would be reluctant to add something that works to his/her MA arsenal.

[Tomas]

One day, someone will explain to me why one would be reluctant to add something that works to his/her MA arsenal.

Because to some people this would be like altering the Bible. Everything is already there, you just need to look for it.
:cool:
Tomas

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because to some people this would be like altering the Bible. Everything is already there, you just need to look for it.
:cool:
Tomas

That's fine, then LOOK.
And if it isn't, then look elsewhere and find it, but you gotta look.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Because to some people this would be like altering the Bible. Everything is already there, you just need to look for it.

Reply]
Well said. What many do not see, is you can just add some BJJ to your collection of tactics, and that does not change the rest of your system. You can do everything the kung fu way all the way untill you find yourself on your back with a grappler on top of you. Once that happens, Kung Fu NEVER had answers for that anyway, so why not just cross in the arts that do?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I saw add grappling, call it squating turtle humps log or whatever and say it's TCMA, just add what works and screw the rest.

Funny thing is that tradition demands that an art/system be effective, to go against that is to be an un-tradionalist.

[godzillakungfu]

Greed ruins everything.

[godzillakungfu]

Funny thing is that tradition demands that an art/system be effective, to go against that is to be an un-tradionalist.

Exactly. Now open a school and pass on the message. Many TCMAers forget that little part.

Along with the fact that many of the GMs in the past fought.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe they think that by adding BJJ or submission grappling, it is not *inert TCMA here*, which is silly, your core system will always be the same, just because you add something that was missing won't change that.

[godzillakungfu]

Maybe they think that by adding BJJ or submission grappling, it is not *inert TCMA here*, which is silly, your core system will always be the same, just because you add something that was missing won't change that.

Right. That is what kills me. CMA has been combining, removing, modifying, and adapting different styles for centuries.

Yet, you have the vocal group that believes their art is pure. No art is pure. If that was the case no art would have similar strikes or kicks. Yes, mechanics may be slightly different but, for the most part, it is all basically the same.

[1bad65]

The only minor issue is that back in those days people stayed off the ground because it is a dangerous place to be, and it was not very likely your opponent would follow you there even if he slammed yoou there in the first place. Even if he did, he stood on his feet and kicked you while you were down, rather than go down with you. Today however, this is pretty much forgotten, because of the popularity of ring sports.


Do you just flat-out ignore evidence that does fit into your warped perception of things?

In the early UFCs this was legal. In PRIDE this was legal. JFS could have kicked Os while he was down. It's not a CHOICE to 'follow' someone to the ground if they take you there and control you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It was still illlegal to pull a knife and start stabbing them repetedly.

Did you miss the military episode of Human Weapon? Where Jayson tried to take it to the ground, and the Marine just pulled a foam Ka-Bar and stabbed him a dozen and one half times? He tried to defend his tactic, but couldn't because he got stabbed repeatedly.

The sergeant even yelled at him and told him"That's what you get fo trying to take it to the ground!"

Chinese Kung Fu had all sorts of issues to deal with that the ring does not, most commonly were knives, and multiple opponents. BOTH were common factors, and BOTH made going to the ground sheer stupidity. Because of that, you just don't see heavy ground fighting skills in CMA. When you do the concept is to try and keep to your feet, or as close as possible so you maintain mobility. If you find yourself down, the goal is to get up, and mobile as quickly as possible.

SOOOOO, if a Kung Fu guy wants to fight in a sporting element, where Ground grappling is prominent, he's got to add that to his training because he is going to have to deal with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was still illlegal to pull a knife and start stabbing them repetedly.

Did you miss the military episode of Human Weapon? Where Jayson tried to take it to the ground, and the Marine just pulled a foam Ka-Bar and stabbed him a dozen and one half times? He tried to defend his tactic, but couldn't because he got stabbed repeatedly.

Chinese Kung Fu had all sorts of issues to deal with that the ring does not, most commonly were knives, and multiple opponents. BOTH were common factors, and BOTH made going to the ground sheer stupidity.

Stop, just stop.
Let it go.

[Phrost]

Stop, just stop.
Let it go.

Good advice.

[1bad65]

I second that.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why? you can't handle too much common sense?? Am I over challenging your brainwashed MMA paradime with too much reall facts?

You can't handle too much critical thinking?

[1bad65]

Okay moron, you carry a Ka-Bar knife everywhere you go so you can feel safe. Be sure to take into places where alcohol is served and airports too.

[Asia]

Why? you can't handle too much common sense?? Am I over challenging your brainwashed MMA paradime with too much reall facts?

You can't handle too much critical thinking?
RD this is silly because the simple fact is that you are wrong. You are trying to rationalize something you don't have experience in and those who do are telling you that you're wrong and you're not listening.

[gabe]

One day, someone will explain to me why one would be reluctant to add something that works to his/her MA arsenal.

Grappling for a few months isn't going to make Rudy a grappler. In fact, it would have given him a false sense of security thinking he could actually handle himself on the ground, very dangerous misconception. Especially if Anthony was a higher level grappler.

Two things Rudy clearly didn't do. First, he didin't get in shape for the fight. If he had the stamina to do what he did early on, he may have won. Any grappler would have had difficulty with what he came at Anthony with. (Kudos to Anthony for weathering it). Anthony's sheer size and stamina was enough to get him to a point where he could play his game.

Secondly, Rudy should have fought as many huge high level grapplers as he could, defending against their takedowns. This is very different than attempting to become a grappler in a few months. In three or so years of Anthony attempting to become an all around MMAist, he resorted to what he does best in the end- grappling. Forced Rudy to play his game. It would have been a mistake if he tried to play Rudy's game standing up, and allow Rudy to catch his second wind. When they started fresh on the ground, there was no way Rudy could get out of that, especially with all that weight on him. Even a skilled grappler, outweighed, would have had an issue trying to get Anthony off of him, regardless of belt color. If you don't believe me, find a sklled grappler about Rudy's size, have Anthony lay on him with GnP in full effect, and see what happens.

No offense whatsoever to Anthony, but IMO, he's a grappler, not a MMAist. Though he trains like one and will hopefully be one. None of his Muay Thai was in evidence. And if he tried to use it, it may have gotten him in trouble. Stuck to what he knows- excellent.

Not many people are really good at everything, unless you're really gifted. Which I'm not, BTW. Investment in one aspect of MMA always means a tradeoff in another.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Because I am not wrong. I would think you of all people would gte that.

I tell you what, go to Iraq, and pull Guard when you run out of ammo and see how that works for you.

ALSO, I am explaining WHY Kung Fu has very little ground, and advocating that Kung Fu guys who wish to fight in the ring should cross train...are you saying I am wrong in that? Maybe they should just ignor the ground issue found inside the ring?

As for the Knife thing, a LOT of people carry knives. I have one on me every time I leave the house, and so do many people I know. It's a very common thing.

[The Willow Sword]

I tell you what, go to Iraq, and pull Guard when you run out of ammo and see how that works for you.


Ok now i think that comment is just a bit too dramatic.

Look ,we are talking about a match with rules and regs and waivers. you get two people who are sufficiantly proficient in their styles and they go at it and one prevails because of technical skills over slinging the meat hooks and haymakers. Grappling was MADE for the ring. Rudy's Kung fu skills seemed to revert back to the good ole neanderthal " me THAK ME PUNCH AND KICK AND GRUNT" style. Anthony took his shots and because of a technical rule of the ring he was allowed to re mount rudy and then knee him in the head thus ending the fight.
I think that if the bout was continuous without any interruptions or resetting of position then we may have seen the Meat hooks and haymakers take anthony down, But we didnt. We saw an advantage of the rule set that was in anthony's favor and he won because of it.
Next time Let them fight it out without stopping anything, THEN we will see what the logical outcome of the fight will be.

Peace,TWS

[1bad65]

Because I am not wrong. I would think you of all people would gte that.


In your little world you are a God.



I tell you what, go to Iraq, and pull Guard when you run out of ammo and see how that works for you.


You really are a space cadet. Funny thing is that the US Army has added BJJ into their H2H. But I guess a VHS/DVD Master like you knows better than professional soldiers who have spent decades in the Army.



As for the Knife thing, a LOT of people carry knives. I have one on me every time I leave the house, and so do many people I know. It's a very common thing.


And alot of people are in prison and have felony convictions for using them and for even just carrying them around. If you have so much faith in your VHS/DVD style, why the need for a weapon?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok fine, I will concede and let you guys win.

I am officially changing my stance now.

Instead of saying Kung fu has little to no ground for the various reasons I sited in my posts above, and therefore needs to cross train in BJJ (or whatever), I am now going to reverse my position due to the pressures exerted by the board and now say that Kung Fu HAS a good ground system, and therefore any Kung Fu exponent who wishes to fight in the ring need not change or add any cross training in anything.


There, you people happy? You all win.

[isol8d]

I am officially changing my stance now.


your avatar remains the same?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe later, but for now i will stand in a different stance in real life. :D

[Anthony_ATT]

Nice quote from Sam Sheridan's book (not sure who originally said it). Very apropos to the occasion JohnnyCache.

Just a sidenote to all this, since Sam's book was brought up. When he was down in Brazil training and following Brazillian Top Team, he became friendly with one of Minotauro's training partners, a young fighter by the name of Danillo Silva Villeforte. He was only named as Danillo in the book.

Danillo is my Coach, and was in my corner for this fight with his younger brother Yuri, and Cisco, another figher from American Top Team. He's grown up alot since then, and his a **** great coach, and Pro MMA fighter. :)

[Asia]

Because I am not wrong. I would think you of all people would gte that.
You are wrong and I more than you know better.


I tell you what, go to Iraq, and pull Guard when you run out of ammo and see how that works for you.
This actually has happened at least three times that I know of. It worked out great for the soldiers involved. One was engaged in a fight and used the guard and scissor sweep to eventually kill the insurgent after achieving the dominant position. Did you forget that I teach this very skill set to troops? Its been proven in battle.


ALSO, I am explaining WHY Kung Fu has very little ground, and advocating that Kung Fu guys who wish to fight in the ring should cross train...are you saying I am wrong in that? Maybe they should just ignor the ground issue found inside the ring?
Jiao Li was a grappling style that had groundwork and was one of the oldest, if not the oldest, recored MA in China. It was an art used in battle. So the real question is what really happened to neglect that aspect.


As for the Knife thing, a LOT of people carry knives. I have one on me every time I leave the house, and so do many people I know. It's a very common thing.
Yes its common but carrying and being able to employ the weapon are two different things.

[Asia]

Ok fine, I will concede and let you guys win.

I am officially changing my stance now.

Instead of saying Kung fu has little to no ground for the various reasons I sited in my posts above, and therefore needs to cross train in BJJ (or whatever), I am now going to reverse my position due to the pressures exerted by the board and now say that Kung Fu HAS a good ground system, and therefore any Kung Fu exponent who wishes to fight in the ring need not change or add any cross training in anything.


There, you people happy? You all win.

No one is saying not to xtrain. Its just your reasoning wasn't really sound or accurate.

[Knifefighter]

It was still illlegal to pull a knife and start stabbing them repetedly.

Did you miss the military episode of Human Weapon? Where Jayson tried to take it to the ground, and the Marine just pulled a foam Ka-Bar and stabbed him a dozen and one half times? He tried to defend his tactic, but couldn't because he got stabbed repeatedly.

The sergeant even yelled at him and told him"That's what you get fo trying to take it to the ground!"

Chinese Kung Fu had all sorts of issues to deal with that the ring does not, most commonly were knives, and multiple opponents. BOTH were common factors, and BOTH made going to the ground sheer stupidity. Because of that, you just don't see heavy ground fighting skills in CMA. When you do the concept is to try and keep to your feet, or as close as possible so you maintain mobility. If you find yourself down, the goal is to get up, and mobile as quickly as possible..


LOL @ thinking the average CMA dude would have even any kind of a chance against a blade.

BTW, blade attacks almost always involve the attacker following his victim to the ground. If you think ground work is not important when a knife is involved, you are completely clueless... of course we already knew that.

[Phrost]

If you can't fight one person unarmed in a controlled environment, how in the hell are you supposed to fight one or more armed people?

:confused:

[Lucas]

If you can't fight one person unarmed in a controlled environment, how in the hell are you supposed to fight one or more armed people?

:confused:

Good point.

This is where traditionality vs. effective combat training need to join forces.

If you do indeed plan on training to be able to fight someone with a weapon, that IMO needs to come far after you have mastered your basics.

In addition, you also by this point should have plenty of practice actually fighting people in a controled or non controled environment. IE: sports, sparring, actual fights.

I wouldnt even think about trying to teach someone how to deal with a blade until AFTER they learn how to fight at least some what profeciently.

But in todays form factory world of CMA, many guys forget that a lot of the information being given out should only be given to someone that has a strong foundation to be able to "support the weight" of the information you are teaching them.

You see to many people learning things they just have no place learning.

TCMA is for someone who can devote A LOT of time to their studies. There is just too much information involved in a highly developed TCMA system.

So you end up with a ton of guys out there practicing TCMA but only putting in 1/8 the time that their actual proficient forfathers put in. It just aint gonna happen.

A lot of BS needs to be cut from the cirriculum and thinned down to the core basics, with a strong training methodology in place, and with a healthy element of resisting opponents and aggresive fights.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

A lot of BS needs to be cut from the cirriculum and thinned down to the core basics, with a strong training methodology in place, and with a healthy element of resisting opponents and aggresive fights.

Reply]
That is how it used to be before the forms factories.

[Mr Punch]

I would like to congratulate RD for being the first person to make it onto my ignore list in seven years or so of being on this forum. I used to believe you can learn something from anything and that it's never worth using ignore because everyone can make you think in some way and maybe help you to reassess/consolidate your position on something.

I was wrong, I admit it! :D

[1bad65]

That is how it used to be before the forms factories.


Yeah, in the days before VHS/DVD Masters.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Mr. Punch!! Ur Ugly, and ur Mom dresses you funny!! :p :D :)

[bawang]

rd is it really true you learn from vcd and dvds?

[johnnycache]

You are wrong and I more than you know better.


This actually has happened at least three times that I know of. It worked out great for the soldiers involved. One was engaged in a fight and used the guard and scissor sweep to eventually kill the insurgent after achieving the dominant position. Did you forget that I teach this very skill set to troops? Its been proven in battle.


Jiao Li was a grappling style that had groundwork and was one of the oldest, if not the oldest, recored MA in China. It was an art used in battle. So the real question is what really happened to neglect that aspect.


Yes its common but carrying and being able to employ the weapon are two different things.

To further elaborate on what Asia has said here, it's important to note that a soldier's most likely application of hand to hand techniques will actually not be as a "backup weapon" but will fall under the category of apprehension and retention of prisoners, particularly in our current theater. jiu-jitsu type technique is therefore a good choice for our military much as it is for law enforcement.

It's also important to note the difference between combining jiujitsu's positional theory with striking, weapons, and weapon retention and the mental image some people have of soldiers in full gear trying to pull rubber guard. Collision, clinching, and wrestling HAPPEN in fast, deadly combat and the person more likely to get to pull out that pistol or k-bar is the person with the better training at the range of engagement.

(which is a long way of saying, "you still need to know how to fight if you carry weapons because YOU might be the one that gets jumped at close range")

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

rd is it really true you learn from vcd and dvds?

Reply]
You know, I am so tired of trying to explain that it's not even funny. If you want to believe that all the people I have learned from in the 18 years I have been doing this stuff just ceased to exist because I learned some forms from video or book, then you are as stupid as all the Bullshido losers.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Collision, clinching, and wrestling HAPPEN in fast, deadly combat and the person more likely to get to pull out that pistol or k-bar is the person with the better training at the range of engagement.

Reply]
Good Kung Fu should give you plenty of skills for this. The only thing missing is the actual laying down on the ground, and snuggling for submission "BJJ style" while the insurgent bayonets you in the back.

[1bad65]

Good Kung Fu should give you plenty of skills for this.


They won't give you the skill to beat a MA hobbyist with about 10 months of MMA training.



The only thing missing is the actual laying down on the ground, and snuggling for submission "BJJ style" while the insurgent bayonets you in the back.


So you are saying the military is wrong and that you, a VHS/DVD Master, are correct. Amazing.

[1bad65]

rd is it really true you learn from vcd and dvds?


And he was in a MA cult for some time. His credentials are impeccable. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

sigh, mo drama fo yo mama :(
can't you guy ever get along...


And he was in a MA cult for some time. His credentials are impeccable. :rolleyes:

hey don't judge, if he wants to let the spirit of guan gong possess him and drink chicken blood that's his thing

nothing wrong with learning from books. i bought "Testicle Eight Outstanding Techniques"

i'm not hostile against nobody, let's all be civil, kiss kiss hug hug

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

They won't give you the skill to beat a MA hobbyist with about 10 months of MMA training.

Reply]
Why the hell Not? You know, there are plenty of people who can fight just fine without the almighty MMA being involved. MMA does NOTHING that isn't done elsewhere. Everything they have came form traditional styles. MMA is not really doing anything new at all. If anything, other than the mixing of snuggle fests on the ground, all it is is a movement to get back to basics. It just brings things back to the way they were before the form factories.

You really need to get out of your little fish bowl more often.

[1bad65]

You really need to get out of your little fish bowl more often.


I guess I should join a cult. That would be a real eye-opener. :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why? You are already nicely brainwashed into one now.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So you are saying the military is wrong

Reply]
A lot of people do not agree with the military BJJ. It's not just me.

[B-Rad]

Do any of them have military close quarters combat experience? Or do you have any evidence/studies that show it's not working? If it's being taught, and feedback from the field is positive, then I don't see what the problem is.

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch!! Ur Ugly, and ur Mom dresses you funny!! :p :D :)That's true I'm afraid. Except for the ugly part. And the fact that my mum lives on the other side of the globe.

And if that's the best you've got, here's (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48114)a little something for you...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hey! I am supposed to be on your Ignore list!!!! :mad:

[Mr Punch]

The only thing missing is the actual laying down on the ground, and snuggling for submission "BJJ style" while the insurgent bayonets you in the back.
...
So you are saying the military is wrong

Reply]
A lot of people do not agree with the military BJJ. It's not just me.Those people either have experience of the military, BJJ, or both... or their opinion is worth as much as yours. Which is this much.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Do any of them have military close quarters combat experience? Or do you have any evidence/studies that show it's not working? If it's being taught, and feedback from the field is positive, then I don't see what the problem is.

Reply]
One of my old sparring partners is a Marine (retired now). He is from before the BJJ invasion though. He was very against it because it trains you to go to the ground. He feels the system they had before was better.

If you paid attention, the BJJ was met with a lot of resistance by military people for many of the reasons I have already layed out on this thread (and got blasted for).

Although, what I saw on Human weapon was not really BJJ. it was more like certain BJJ techniques were taken, but only to use if absolutely necessary. The rest of it was totally *Not* the BJJ mentality at all.

If you guys paid attention to that segment, Jason Chambers was doing the empty hand combat tests with them, and at one point, he took it to the ground. The Marine he was fighting just pulled a knife and stabbed him a bunch of times. The drill Sergent yelled at him and said "THAT is what you get for *Trying* to take it to the ground!!" which is a mindset in total opposition to BJJ...even if they are borrowing a few techniques from it for use during policing duties.

The funny part is you could see Chambers wanted to argue with him, and even commented so, but also mentions "How can I? I got stabbed a bunch of times" (GOD I wish that was on Youtube!!!)

I'd am really thinking of buying that one, because for the first time I see support for my views, and it was coming from the US Marines of all places. The other cool thing is they kept mentioning the history of many of the techniques, and how much of it originally came from Chinese fighting styles. The way they fought really held solid to the Chinese fighting mindset too...despite a few token BJJ techniques seen here or there.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Those people either have experience of the military, BJJ, or both... or their opinion is worth as much as yours. Which is this much.

Reply]
Yet they agree with me.....especially many people with military experience in the system used prior to the BJJ being introduced.

[godzillakungfu]

Reply]
Yet they agree with me.....especially many people with military experience in the system used prior to the BJJ being introduced.
Quit trolling.

[1bad65]

A lot of people do not agree with the military BJJ. It's not just me.


Like Phil Elmore.

[OsirisBJJ]

Chambers is also an escrimador trained in weaponry. He ****ed up, but its not like he's never seen a knife before. He just ****ed up.

[MSphinx]

Chambers also does Kung Fu, oddly enough.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do any of them have military close quarters combat experience? Or do you have any evidence/studies that show it's not working? If it's being taught, and feedback from the field is positive, then I don't see what the problem is.

Reply]
One of my old sparring partners is a Marine (retired now). He is from before the BJJ invasion though. He was very against it because it trains you to go to the ground. He feels the system they had before was better.

If you paid attention, the BJJ was met with a lot of resistance by military people for many of the reasons I have already layed out on this thread (and got blasted for).

Although, what I saw on Human weapon was not really BJJ. it was more like certain BJJ techniques were taken, but only to use if absolutely necessary. The rest of it was totally *Not* the BJJ mentality at all.

If you guys paid attention to that segment, Jason Chambers was doing the empty hand combat tests with them, and at one point, he took it to the ground. The Marine he was fighting just pulled a knife and stabbed him a bunch of times. The drill Sergent yelled at him and said "THAT is what you get for *Trying* to take it to the ground!!" which is a mindset in total opposition to BJJ...even if they are borrowing a few techniques from it for use during policing duties.

The funny part is you could see Chambers wanted to argue with him, and even commented so, but also mentions "How can I? I got stabbed a bunch of times" (GOD I wish that was on Youtube!!!)

I'd am really thinking of buying that one, because for the first time I see support for my views, and it was coming from the US Marines of all places. The other cool thing is they kept mentioning the history of many of the techniques, and how much of it originally came from Chinese fighting styles. The way they fought really held solid to the Chinese fighting mindset too...despite a few token BJJ techniques seen here or there.

You know...there are many reason why BJJ is taught to the military.
Its easy and safe to learn.
teaches you how to fight full on with control.
Teaches the importance of getting a dominant position and control
teaches you how to finish a fight
Is not dependant on "KO power".

Notice that I never mentioned ground work at all.

You seem to no realize that the BJJ techniques taught to the military are PART of a whole MMA training, along with strikes, clinch work and weapons.

It works and has been TRULY "proven in combat".

I say this and I am NOT a fan of sport BJJ, but Vale tudo BJJ has my highest respect.
Why?
IT ****ING WORKS.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know...there are many reason why BJJ is taught to the military.
Its easy and safe to learn.
teaches you how to fight full on with control.

Reply]
Same with Kung Fu

Teaches the importance of getting a dominant position and control

Reply]
all styles teach this. BJJ did not invent this, NOR does it hold exclusive license over it.

teaches you how to finish a fight
Is not dependant on "KO power".

Reply]
Again, Kung Fu has the exact same core mentality...only it ALSO has KO striking power too.

Notice that I never mentioned ground work at all.

You seem to no realize that the BJJ techniques taught to the military are PART of a whole MMA training, along with strikes, clinch work and weapons

Reply]
No, re read what I wrote. If you can comprehend at all you will see that THAT WAS MY POINT!! The BJJ in the military is just a small part of a whole that just borrowed a few techniques, most of which is NOT used with a BJJ mindset, which prefers the ground. The USMC is the opposite IE they think the same as Kung Fu and also openly admit much of thier techniques are Kung Fu derived. USMC does NOT use BJJ tactics and strategy (which *Define the style). Yes, there are a few Bjj techniques there, used during civilian policing missions, BUT most of what they do is so far from BJJ that it is in totall opposition to it.

Also re read, I was noting that FINALLY someone agrees with me, that what I have been saying for YEARS, on the way things *Should* be done, and it just happens to be the USMC!

[MasterKiller]

The ARMY uses BJJ as a base because you can safely train with 100% intention and it breeds aggression and competiveness into soldiers...the same reason most armies in history have trained empty-hand fighting since the sword was invented and made open-hand figthing obsolete on the battlefield.

BTW, the ARMY combatives tournament is an amateur MMA rules event.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Same with Kung Fu

Kung fu is generic, be specific.


all styles teach this. BJJ did not invent this, NOR does it hold exclusive license over it.

No one ever said it did, where did you hear that ?


Again, Kung Fu has the exact same core mentality...only it ALSO has KO striking power too.

Again, kung fu is a generic term and KO power is NOT system specfic but person specific.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh, and another thing. They were showing silent sentry removal techniques using a rear naked choke. They said the USMC got it from CHINA decades BEFORE BJJ was even a blip on anyone's radar!!!

So, sport MMA needs to STFU about how useless Kung Fu is now...it's apparently more than sufficient for the USMC and infact seems to dominate thier system from techniques, to strategical mindset. BJJ is at best not even represented by anything more than some personal controlling techniques. The over all DEFINING martial strategy of BJJ is not only not there, but based on what I saw in the Human Weapon episode, it is apparently frowned apon.

Instead the USMC uses CLASSIC Chinese Kung Fu tactics, strategy AND TECHNIQUES that they openly *Admit* come from China.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE]The BJJ in the military is just a small part of a whole that just borrowed a few techniques, most of which is NOT used with a BJJ mindset, which prefers the ground. [QUOTE]

You do realize the difference between training forthe ground and prefering the ground right?
And don't confuse sport BJJ rules with vale Tudo/MMA BJJ.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The ARMY uses BJJ as a base because you can safely train with 100% intention and it breeds aggression and competiveness into soldiers...the same reason most armies in history have trained empty-hand fighting since the sword was invented and made open-hand figthing obsolete on the battlefield.

Reply]
It is doubtfull they train it very seriously. Going to the ground in live life thretening conditions will gte you killed...as MMA Jayson Chambers accidentally proved in the Human Weapon series.

BTW, the ARMY combatives tournament is an amateur MMA rules even

Reply]
Of course it is an MMA event...the military has ALWAYS been an MMA.

[MasterKiller]

It is doubtfull they train it very seriously. Going to the ground in live life thretening conditions will gte you killed...as MMA Jayson Chambers accidentally proved in the Human Weapon series.

Well, I trained with ARMY combatives guys for a while, so I think I know more about it than you.

The ARMY open-hand philosophy is to be able to survive long enough for your battle buddy to shoot the enemy in the head. In situations where you have on 80lbs of gear and cannot possibly kick and punch effectively, BJJ makes perfect sense.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

BJJ exists (for all practical purposes) ON THE GROUND with a sole tactic of taking the opponent TO the ground. It *IS the mantra the MMA/BJJ cum soaked sweat drinkers have been BLASTING at everyone traditional at EVERY mind numbing opportunity, for 15 years or more now.

According to the USMC BJJ is WRONG!!!

Based on the tactics, strategy's shown by the USMC, and thier OWN ADMISSIONS Chinese Kung Fu is right!

Now, you MMA sweat drinkers can argue ALL YOU WANT, but the fact remains that your precious BJJ is at best a MINOR part of US military training, and as a style it is ACTIVELY discouraged. It is only done because some BJJ nut riders got in there and established it. They sure are not using it for real combat...except for a few isolated techniques that are borrowed and fit INTO the USMC's already existing fighting style (Which is in TOTAL opposition to BJJ btw)

[MasterKiller]

Now, you MMA sweat drinkers can argue ALL YOU WANT, but the fact remains that your precious BJJ is at best a MINOR part of US military training, and as a style it is ACTIVELY discouraged. It is only done because some BJJ nut riders got in there and established it. They sure are not using it for real combat...except for a few isolated techniques that are borrowed and fit INTO the USMC's already existing fighting style (Which is in TOTAL opposition to BJJ btw)

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are basing your whole paradigm from ONE TV SHOW.

The first two levels of ARMY Combatives is about 90% BJJ training. Level 3 and up is for high-level instructors, which means most soldiers ONLY get level 1 and 2 training.


Again...

The ARMY open-hand philosophy is to be able to survive long enough for your battle buddy to shoot the enemy in the head. In situations where you have on 80lbs of gear and cannot possibly kick and punch effectively, BJJ makes perfect sense.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are basing your whole paradigm from ONE TV SHOW.

Reply]
And training and fighting with a former USMC for years in the 90's. You convinently forget that part. Also, I am going off of what other military, and former military people have been saying on other boards since BJJ was first introduced to the US military.


Again...

The ARMY open-hand philosophy is to be able to survive long enough for your battle buddy to shoot the enemy in the head. In situations where you have on 80lbs of gear and cannot possibly kick and punch effectively, BJJ makes perfect sense.

Reply]
Maybe, but it sure as hell is NOT to lay down and pull guard, or intentionally TAKE it to the ground so it's easy for ENEMIE'S comrades to kill you. BJJ *IS* DEFINED by it's "Take it to the ground" Mantra. Which is totall opposition to what the USMC teaches.

[MasterKiller]

And training and fighting with a former USMC for years in the 90's. You continently forget that part.

Who cares what they used to do? They used to fight with bayonets. I thought we were discussing now.


Maybe, but it sure as hell is NOT to lay down and pull guard, or intentionally TAKE it to the ground so it's easy for ENEMIES comrades can kill you.

You should really take an MMA class sometime so you can speak knowledgably about ground tactics.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I'm not talking about ground tactics. My knowledge of them is meaningless in this discussion, since whether or not going to the ground in the first place is the issue, not what to do once there, and the USMC already agrees with me. I should argue with them...why?

BJJ style fighting is good for the RING. If I decide to go fight in the ring, I will cross train in it.

As for the comment that my USMC friend was from the old system...well it appears the USMC abandoned BJJ in thier real fighting system, and went back to what they WERE doing before. Outside of gleaming a few techniques, BJJ is not much of a presence in USMC hand to hand combat AT ALL!!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Who cares what they used to do? They used to fight with bayonets. I thought we were discussing now.

Reply]
They STILL fight with bayonets....

[MasterKiller]

The techniques used by MCMAP vary in degrees of lethality, allowing the user to select the most appropriate (usually the least) amount of force. For example, a Marine facing a nonviolent but noncompliant subject can use an unarmed restraint to force compliance with minimal damage and pain. A more aggressive subject could be met with a choke, hold, or a strike. Lethal force can be used on a subject as a last resort. The majority of techniques can be defensive or offensive in use, with or without a weapon; allowing Marines flexibility in combat and operations other than war (such as civil control or humanitarian missions, as well as self-defense).


Tan Belt
The tan belt syllabus focuses on the development of the basics of armed and unarmed combat. Students start with the Basic Warrior Stance and break-falls are taught for safety, then move to:

basic punches, uppercuts, and hooks
basic upper-body strikes, including the eye gouge, hammer fists, and elbow strikes
basic lower-body strikes, including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
bayonet techniques
basic chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
basic unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
basic knife techniques
basic weapons of opportunity
Students must prove proficiency with 80% of 50 techniques to pass and earn their belt. The tan belt syllabus is part of The Basic School and recruit training curriculum.


[Gray Belt
The gray belt syllabus expands on the basic techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
intermediate upper-body strikes including knife-hands (karate chops) and elbow strikes
intermediate lower-body strikes including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
intermediate unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
intermediate knife techniques
basic ground fighting
basic nonlethal baton techniques
intermediate weapons on opportunity

Green Belt
The Green belt technique shifts focus from defensive to offensive techniques with:

intermediate bayonet techniques
muscle gouging
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes
intermediate unarmed manipulation
intermediate ground fighting
intermediate nonlethal baton techniques
advanced weapons of opportunity

advanced ground fighting and chokes
advanced throws
unarmed vs. hand held weapons
firearm retention
firearm disarmament
advanced knife techniques
advanced nonlethal baton techniques

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons

Black Belt 2nd Degree
rifle vs. rifle
short weapon vs. rifle
unarmed vs. rifle

Bold is my emphasis.

The ARMY curriculum is more ground based:


In 2001, Matt Larsen, then a sergeant first class, started the US Army Combatives School, located on Fort Benning. Students are taught techniques from the 2002 version of Field Manual 3-25.150 (Combatives), also written by Matt Larsen. The regimen focused on small, easily repeatable drills, in which practitioners could learn multiple related techniques rapidly.

For example, Drill one teaches several techniques: escaping blows, maintaining the mount, escaping the mount, maintaining the guard, passing the guard, assuming side control, maintaining side control, preventing and assuming the mount. The drill can be completed in less than a minute and can be done repeatedly with varying levels of resistance to maximize training benefits.

The Combatives School teaches four instructor certification courses. Students of the first course are not expected to have any knowledge of combatives upon arrival. They are taught fundamental techniques in a series of grappling drills. The basic techniques form a framework upon which the rest of the program can build and are taught as a series of drills, which can be performed as a part of daily physical training. While the course is heavy on grappling, it does not lose sight of the fact that it is a course designed for soldiers going into combat. It is made clear that while combatives can be used to kill or disable, the man that typically wins a hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose allies arrive with guns first.

Subsequent courses build upon the framework by adding throws and takedowns from wrestling and Judo, striking skills from boxing and Muay Thai, weapons fighting from Eskrima and the western martial arts, all of that combined with how to conduct scenario training, refereeing the various levels of Combatives competitions.

There are several reasons that the combatives course is taught:

To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms
To provide a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield
To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly

[1bad65]

Well, I trained with ARMY combatives guys for a while, so I think I know more about it than you.


Dude, he was in a cult and is a VHS/DVD Master. He knows more than you, and anyone else for that matter. Your actual military experience pales in comparison to his credentials. :rolleyes:

[Scott Meneely]

MK dropping the authority!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, you win, ur right.

Going to the ground is the best thing to do always. The USMC totally advocated going to the ground as much as possible, instead of avoiding it at all costs like I was saying before.

Sorry, nexttime I won't voice my opinion to someone who's "Bold Fu" is at such a high level. :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

While the course is heavy on grappling, it does not lose sight of the fact that it is a course designed for soldiers going into combat. It is made clear that while combatives can be used to kill or disable, the man that typically wins a hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose allies arrive with guns first.

Reply]\
Maybe they should go back to the old WWII knife fighting then, instead of wasting time teaching them BJJ...so they don't have to depend on assistance from thier buddies. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Moron, READ THE POST MK PUT UP!

Tan Belt
basic knife techniques

Gray Belt
intermediate knife techniques

Brown Belt
advanced knife techniques

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced knife techniques


You either refuse to even read others' posts, you have ZERO reading comprehension skill, or you are trolling. Which is it?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

OMG Did I just see this????

Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons


I thought the almighty BJJ PROVED pressure points don't work!!!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Question, How many hours do they spend on the ground, VS all the other stuff in that big huge list of skills? Are they doing like 90% Ground fighting like a BJJ school? or is it like 2% of thier training becasue going to the ground on purpose is just stupid, and they only train it as a last resort in case they are forced there against their will?

In reality, they avoid anything remotely associated to the BJJ style of fighting 99% of th time. BJJ style fighting is used ONLY when no other option is feasible or tactically advantageous.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Along that line, how much time do they spend on empty hand skills compared to fire arms skills?

Also, I think the USMC gets superior training to the army anyway because they have more dangerous jobs. so bringing up the ground training of the army is pointless as they are merely support for the USMC (who does the real hard core fighting anyway)

[1bad65]

I thought the almighty BJJ PROVED pressure points don't work!!!


As someone pointed out earlier, alot of the H2H being used now is for prisoners. A guy in my gym is a police officer and a BJJ Purple Belt. He was tought pressure points in the police academy. Not as a way to end a conflict, but as a kind of a 'move along' technique. He uses it for that at his job, yet when he fights in a cage he does not use pressure points. They are not totally useless, they have their place.

And does it really matter what military guys like MK or Asia say anyway? You will just ignore their posts and say they are wrong anyway.

[FatherDog]

The ARMY uses BJJ as a base because you can safely train with 100% intention and it breeds aggression and competiveness into soldiers...the same reason most armies in history have trained empty-hand fighting since the sword was invented and made open-hand figthing obsolete on the battlefield.
[COLOR="red"]
Reply]
It is doubtfull they train it very seriously. Going to the ground in live life thretening conditions will gte you killed/COLOR]





I tell you what, go to Iraq, and pull Guard when you run out of ammo and see how that works for you.
This actually has happened at least three times that I know of. It worked out great for the soldiers involved. One was engaged in a fight and used the guard and scissor sweep to eventually kill the insurgent after achieving the dominant position. Did you forget that I teach this very skill set to troops? Its been proven in battle.

Hmmm, whose opinion could possibly be more credible in this, the guy who's active duty military, helps teach their combatives program, and has done foreign tours, or Royal Dragon? It's such a difficult decision.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question, How many hours do they spend on the ground, VS all the other stuff in that big huge list of skills? Are they doing like 90% Ground fighting like a BJJ school? or is it like 2% of thier training becasue going to the ground on purpose is just stupid, and they only train it as a last resort in case they are forced there against their will?

In reality, they avoid anything remotely associated to the BJJ style of fighting 99% of th time. BJJ style fighting is used ONLY when no other option is feasible or tactically advantageous.

I worry about you sometimes.



Along that line, how much time do they spend on empty hand skills compared to fire arms skills?

Also, I think the USMC gets superior training to the army anyway because they have more dangerous jobs. so bringing up the ground training of the army is pointless as they are merely support for the USMC (who does the real hard core fighting anyway)

Yep, worry, worry, worry.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And does it really matter what military guys like MK or Asia say anyway? You will just ignore their posts and say they are wrong anyway.

Reply]
I don't think MK is in the military. He just trains with a guy. His credibility is on par with mine since we both just "Know a guy in the USMC"

As for Asia, when he teaches his troops, is he spending 90% of his effort teaching them BJJ? or is he following what we see on the Human Weapon episode where BJJ is taught, but is a very minor part of the curriculum, of which MOST is opposed to BJJ strategical tactics?

I know everyone has some sort of sexual attachment to BJJ, but it's really a minuscule part of military hand to hand....for all the same reasons I have been touting for years.

[1bad65]

I think RD needs to get some DVDs of 'ER' and 'House'. Then he can tell surgeons how to do their jobs the right way.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Along that line, how much time do they spend on empty hand skills compared to fire arms skills?

Also, I think the USMC gets superior training to the army anyway because they have more dangerous jobs. so bringing up the ground training of the army is pointless as they are merely support for the USMC (who does the real hard core fighting anyway)

Yep, worry, worry, worry.

Reply]
What exactly is the Army's function compared to the USMC?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think RD needs to get some DVDs of 'ER' and 'House'. Then he can tell surgeons how to do their jobs the right way.

Reply]
That would never work. I need video's of real surgeons. ER and House will just tell me what I need to know to coach your acting skills if you were planning to play a doctor on TV. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Along that line, how much time do they spend on empty hand skills compared to fire arms skills?

Also, I think the USMC gets superior training to the army anyway because they have more dangerous jobs. so bringing up the ground training of the army is pointless as they are merely support for the USMC (who does the real hard core fighting anyway)

Yep, worry, worry, worry.

Reply]
What exactly is the Army's function compared to the USMC?


have you served?

[MasterKiller]

And does it really matter what military guys like MK or Asia say anyway? You will just ignore their posts and say they are wrong anyway.

Reply]
I don't think MK is in the military. He just trains with a guy. His credibility is on par with mine since we both just "Know a guy in the USMC.

I am not military. But I trained 3 days a week with combatives instructors for 2 years, including one Level 3 instructor, four Level 2 instructors, and about twenty Level 1 instructors.

I currently have two Level 1 graduates in my class, and one Level 2 graduate.

I think that trumps your one USMC guy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

have you served?

Reply]
No. My Father was an Airforce MP though...not that that counts.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am not military. But I trained 3 days a week with combatives instructors for 2 years, including one Level 3 instructor, four Level 2 instructors, and about twenty Level 1 instructors.

I currently have two Level 1 graduates in my class, and one Level 2 graduate.

I think that trumps your one USMC guy.

Reply]
Ok.

So what percentage of the curriculem is BJJ? Do they spend 90% of thier hand to hand time on it, or do they spend like 2-3% and the rest on more practical stuff?

Also, is BJJ the over all governing style, meaning they advocate going to the ground first, or is the military combatives more centered on avoiding the ground (Non BJJ), and only going there if forced?

[sanjuro_ronin]

have you served?

Reply]
No. My Father was an Airforce MP though...not that that counts.

I don't think you are qualified to judge ANYTHING about the Army or the corp or the military.
And yes, making a comment on something like you did, is passing a judgement.
And FYI, most marines thought the LINE training your friend probably was exposed to, was even worse than what they the army does.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Another thing, what is your thought on all the Military guys who were on all the forums in disaproval at bringing in BJJ to the military hand to hand when it first happened?

[MasterKiller]

Ok.

So what percentage of the curriculem is BJJ? Do they spend 90% of thier hand to hand time on it, or do they spend like 2-3% and the rest on more practical stuff?

Also, is BJJ the over all governing style, meaning they advocate going to the ground first, or is the military combatives more centered on avoiding the ground (Non BJJ), and only going there if forced?

Like I said, Level 1 and Level 2 are probably 90% BJJ.

Why?

Like I said, the Army believes A) Guns win battles, not punches B) Since you travel in groups all you have to do is survive an attack long enough for your buddy to shoot the guy in the head and controlling them on the ground is more practcial when you are weighed down with equipment and armor and C) BJJ can be trained at 100% intensity and therefore keeps soldiers aggressive.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One more thing, how do you explain the comments by the Training insrtuctor in the Human Weapon episode where he tells Jayson Chambers "THAT is what you get for trying to take it to the ground" after he got stabbed repededly for doing so?

Not to mention the entire training program stayed off the ground and prefered to stay on thier feet except for a small few individual circumstances where going down was a tactical advantage?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Like I said, Level 1 and Level 2 are probably 90% BJJ.

Why?

Like I said, the Army believes A) Guns win battles, not punches B) Since you travel in groups all you have to do is survive an attack long enough for your buddy to shoot the guy in the head and controlling them on the ground is more practcial when you are weighed down with equipment and armor and C) BJJ can be trained at 100% intensity and therefore keeps soldiers aggressive.

Reply]
Ok, now answer this:

Why does the USMC do it differently then?

[MasterKiller]

Ok, now answer this:

Why does the USMC do it differently then?

For sh1ts and giggles?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Not good enough, there must be a reason. Maybe they have more of a need to function individually, and therefore need a sounder, more versatile system.

Maybe they are in situation where going to the ground is just stupid, so they don't advocate it?

[Toby]

A few years ago I wasted the better part of 2000 posts arguing with someone who it turned out was insane. Sure I felt "right" and "good" when I'd get my point across to others, and lots of people shared my opinions since I'd reference literature and construct logical well-thought out posts, but I never managed to sway the insane person's views. In fact that person spiralled deeper and deeper into insanity over time. All that time and effort was in vain and could've been spent far more productively. I feel a lot of you are falling into the same trap with Royal Dragon.

[MasterKiller]

RD sounds like this Colonel I know who privately trains a select group of soldiers in the deadly art of Tae Kwon Do because he thinks the combatives program is useless.

Of course, none of them competed in the All-Post Tournament...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I see, you can't answer my last question so you go on the attack.

Ok, that pretty much settles it then..
Thanks!

[1bad65]

RD, if you read the long post that MK posted you will see a MIX of techniques. Armed and unarmed, standing and ground, etc. It's not a 'always go to the ground' thing. The key part is surviving until help arrives. So if a guy pulled knife on you, my bet is that you are trained to move around and avoid the knife until help arrives. I'm fairly sure the instructors do not say to only go to the ground in that situation. However, I will see what someone with actual experience says. Should I be wrong, I'll admit it. You should try it sometime.

[isol8d]

keep your head in the clouds and you will never have to fight on the ground.:D

[The Willow Sword]

shouldnt this thread be DONE WITH NOW???????????? Fight is over. Props all around yada yada yada. Time to get out the ole padlock;)

Peace,TWS

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD, if you read the long post that MK posted you will see a MIX of techniques. Armed and unarmed, standing and ground, etc. It's not a 'always go to the ground' thing. The key part is surviving until help arrives. So if a guy pulled knife on you, my bet is that you are trained to move around and avoid the knife until help arrives. I'm fairly sure the instructors do not say to only go to the ground in that situation. However, I will see what someone with actual experience says. Should I be wrong, I'll admit it. You should try it sometime.

Reply]
This is exactly what I have been saying. Only I have been adding the Human Weapon episode supporting my position because everyone can easily access that by going to the website and buying it.

Between that show, and what I have always heard from people actually in the military, BJJ is not a priority in thier hand to hand. Even the big huge list MK posted showing the various levels in the curriculum paints that picture. Out of 40+ categories in the curriculum, you only see ground fighting 4 times.

What the Human Weapon episode showed is that the USMC hand to hand system is derived far more from Chinese fighting arts. BJJ is only a small part of it. They even made a point to show the history of a number of techniques. Take the Rear Naked Choke for example. The USMC got it from China decades before BJJ was a cum drop on the Gracie family leg.

What does this prove? It proves the over fanatical, sexual attraction and attachment people have for BJJ and the over all MMA way of doing things and the trashing of Chinese arts as well as accusations that they are not only not as good as the modern ring sports, but also ineffective period is all a bunch of hogwash.

The frik'n USMC is clearly build on Chinese fighting arts. The BJJ is only a recent addition, and not as significant as the cum slurping MMA fan crowd makes it out to be.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

shouldnt this thread be DONE WITH NOW???????????? Fight is over. Props all around yada yada yada. Time to get out the ole padlock

Peace,TWS

Reply]
No, we must keep going and going till the next challenge match emerges. Right now I am trying to get MK to challenge the USMC.

[The Willow Sword]

The frik'n USMC is clearly build on Chinese fighting arts. The BJJ is only a recent addition, and not as significant as the cum slurping MMA fan crowd makes it out to be.


uhhh correction the USMC originally had their fighting techniques revolving around JAPANESE Martial systems and YES YES FUKING YES Japanese martial arts has roots in CMA:rolleyes: TWS

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The training instructor kept pointing out techniques they teach that came from China. The over all mentality of thier fighting is clearly Chinese. But yes, the USMC system originated with Japanese arts.

[1bad65]

Why do you so detest BJJ and those who practice it?

[MasterKiller]

He fears what he doesn't understand.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Because they act like they are the ONLY ones who have any skill and the only ones who have anything effective.

It's not so much BJJ I detest, it's all the MMA cum slurpers who seem to feel anything outside of thier little paradime is worthless, and BJJ rules all.

Te attitude flys in the face of reality. The MMA VS TCMA debate has become twisted to the point that the MMA?BJJ side is now blisfully living in a fantasy alnd that is NOT based in reality.

The TCMA crowd is not this pathetic bunch of larping Bafoons you guys make us out to be, and much of what we do is put into gear and used with great success world wide.

In addition to that, the overall BJJ brainwashing about going to the ground is just plain wrong, despite what the blind sexualy obsessed MMA/BJJ worshiping drones profess.

Yes, it is great stuff in it's element (Ring, law enforcement...maybe), but it is only one of many, many methods that also work just as well.

Good Kung Fu has all the elements BJJ does except the ground grappling. Every time I see a BJJ/MMA supporter speak or write, they do so as if "THEY" are the only ones who have any idea about positional control, clinching, takedowns or defending such when faced with it.

You can't even speak form personal experience if you don't activly support the MMA/BJJ Agenda. I could talk about REAL fights I have been in, and delt with just fine with my Kung Fu, but then you guys will start siting a whole bunch of ring fights as if they are frik'n Case Law, hold that as the credible facts, and dismiss my actual personal encounters becasue I didn't want to go to the ground, or I managed to actually (God forbid) use Kung Fu like it's supposed to be used and it worked instead of BJJ.

It's all become bull**** for a zillion reasons and I am just tired of hearing about how BJJ is the supper dupper ultimate art, and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, no matter how much it's based in truth they get attacked, laughed at and ridiculed.


It just ****es me off.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He fears what he doesn't understand.

Reply]
No, that is not it at all. Anytime I have crossed hands with grapelers I have allways had a lot of fun.

It's just that it's all full of holes, and that is just glossed over in the attempt to bash TCMA. It's become a sport, not about reality.

Frenzied Witch Hunt is the term that comes to mind.

I have to say, it was really good to see a pure TCMA go against a guy MUCH bigger them him, and do so well for once...especially when he was using moves direct form his forms VERBETUM, in the ring with actual success.

I am excited to see guys like Charles Wilson Rudy Abel and Mike Patterson fighting, and training fighters with Kung Fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you have been exposed to too much BJJ Bluebelt-itus.

My experience was much like yours, but I decided to ignore the voices and learn from the source and for almost 2 years trained BJJ/MMA with two very high ranking BJJ BB, great guys that were very down to earth and were so open to learning that I realized that the only true BJJ nutriders are the ones who's skills on the mat are far less than their skill on the keyboard.

[The Willow Sword]

Why do you so detest BJJ and those who practice it?


of course i am not going to answer RD's question for him, HOWEVER for me, its not so much the art and the techniques and style persay, it is more of the people who practice it and follow it and arrogantly tout that it is the king of all kings of fighting and such. i find that this is very presumptious and misleading,just as those who tout that kung fu is the king and be all to fighting and such. My whole thing is that if you can utilize it on the street(and when i say street i dont mean some fight club type thing OR i live in tha ghetto thing) if you can successfully utilize whatever you are learning to defend YOUR life should it be threatened, then i say GREAT and keep on doing it. But dont make it a mission in life to discount everyone elses methods of fighting and say "well that aint nothin because what i do is superior and i have a youtube link to prove it.

it IS arrogantly presumptious for ANY martial systems that bases its techniques in the tournament and ring with RULES of engagement to say that they are far superior to anything else that is out there. i say this for both CMA AND MMA advocates. UNTIL you can say that you have successfully defended yourself in a life or death situation or a situation that warranted you to use all that you had to escape or survive, you just need to STFU and stop being a ego centric blowhard. Hey and even if you HAVE had the chance to use it in a life or death situation then you should be HUMBLE and NOT some meathead with an attitude,this isnt NFL where you score a TD and rub it in someone elses face.
i put this to the Bullshido guys as well as the CMA guys.

Peace,TWS

[1bad65]

You really do get more stupid with every post. Plenty of MMA gyms do not believe BJJ rules all. The Miletich camp is known for their standup and wrestling, The Pit(Liddell's gym) is known for their striking. Randy Couture's gym has wrestling as a base.

Do you have any proof of your alleged exploits with BJJ/MMA guys? I'm guessing not....:rolleyes:

[B-Rad]

its not so much the art and the techniques and style persay, it is more of the people who practice it and follow it and arrogantly tout that it is the king of all kings of fighting and such.
From my experience, this is more of an internet thing, particularly if these guys are posting on a kungfu forum... or if they're posturing for their business. Every grappler I've met in person so far has been pretty respectful, curious, open minded, and realistic.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

of course i am not going to answer RD's question for him, HOWEVER for me, its not so much the art and the techniques and style persay, it is more of the people who practice it and follow it and arrogantly tout that it is the king of all kings of fighting and such. i find that this is very presumptious and misleading,just as those who tout that kung fu is the king and be all to fighting and such. My whole thing is that if you can utilize it on the street(and when i say street i dont mean some fight club type thing OR i live in tha ghetto thing) if you can successfully utilize whatever you are learning to defend YOUR life should it be threatened, then i say GREAT and keep on doing it. But dont make it a mission in life to discount everyone elses methods of fighting and say "well that aint nothin because what i do is superior and i have a youtube link to prove it.

Reply]
EXACTLY!!! Well said, and much better put than I could write!!

[The Willow Sword]

I will agree with you on that one.

My experiences with Grapplers and BJJ guys have been limited, and i have had a chance to roll with a few people and i see the benefits as well as the detraments,
I dont base my techniques and skillsets for the ring, for me personally i do not want to get into a false sense of security by just training for a match. my goals are different and i dont think by any strecth that my goals and skillsets are superior to anyone elses( i dont think that way and if i did in the distant past i have sinced evolved)
Peace,TWS

[1bad65]

Every grappler I've met in person so far has been pretty respectful, curious, open minded, and realistic.


This is true. Most BJJ guys watch MMA. Even if they only train BJJ, they see guys getting KO'd by guys using non-BJJ techniques. The ones who tend be the most arrogant are TMA guys who have the 'no one can take me down, no one can hit me, my style is the ultimate' attitude, and alot of boxers who do not understand the ground game(like Mayweather until he was called out by Sherk).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

From my experience, this is more of an internet thing, particularly if these guys are posting on a kungfu forum... or if they're posturing for their business. Every grappler I've met in person so far has been pretty respectful, curious, open minded, and realistic.

Reply]
I think it's the students, and even more the fans than the actual higher level fighters.

[godzillakungfu]

You really do get more stupid with every post. Plenty of MMA gyms do not believe BJJ rules all. The Miletich camp is known for their standup and wrestling, The Pit(Liddell's gym) is known for their striking. Randy Couture's gym has wrestling as a base.

Do you have any proof of your alleged exploits with BJJ/MMA guys? I'm guessing not....:rolleyes:

Yes. One TV show, with one sentence, from one instructor, trumps all.:rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

Reply]
I think it's the students, and even more the fans than the actual higher level fighters.

This is different from kung fu how? I mean is that what this is really about? Sour grapes.

Each style went through this garbage.

Kung fu was soft and was the best.
Karate was hard and was the best.
TKD had superior kicks it was the best.



Reply]
I think it's the students, and even more the fans than the actual higher level fighters.


I'm reading all of your posts and remembering the same arrogance I encountered in all three styles when they were at the top.

The only difference is TMAers have semi-joined forces against BJJ. Whereas before, they would bad mouth each other not joining sides.

[1bad65]

Yes. One TV show, with one sentence, from one instructor, trumps all.:rolleyes:


Especially if he was watching a VHS/DVD copy of the show. :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the MMA/BJJ crowd has an agenda to stomp out TCMA. They have spread thier agenda with a brainwashing like precision that has propagated itself on a large scale.

I think if this was not the case, TCMA would be much more representative in the MMA arena.

[godzillakungfu]

I think the MMA/BJJ crowd has an agenda to stomp out TCMA. They have spread thier agenda with a brainwashing like precision that has propagated itself on a large scale.

I think if this was not the case, TCMA would be much more representative in the MMA arena.
Ah ha tilting at windmills. OYD has been exposed so, now you must fight the BJJ cult.
Interesting. BJJ /MMA has caused many TCMA Masters to lighten up on the cross train or get expelled crap that, led to their degradation in the first place.

Sanshou, Sanda Shuijiao, etc are making a huge comebacks because of aliveness which, was part of TMA in general before it disappeared.

I remember Bill Superfoot Wallace, Chuck Norris and the other hard fighting strikers. I also remember the lawsuits and general disdain for each other that led to TMAs crappy MMA standing right now.

It isn't BJJ or MMAs fault that TMAers pressed the belief that it takes 10+ years to get good at fighting.

It isn't their fault schools do drills instead of sparring.
It isn't their fault that all TMAers lived through past masters THAT FOUGHT while, not engaging in the same activity.


Quit assigning guilt and take the blame yourself.

[Tomas]

repeat this mantra:

"If you can not fight in the ring, you can not fight on the street."

Those are not independent skill sets. Once you have mastered the ring, you can expand into street techniques, and not opposite.

Tomas

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

WRONG!! There are plenty of people who fight just fine on the street, but would get killed in the ring. They are different paradimes, and you don't need one, to get good at the other.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sanshou, Sanda Shuijiao, etc are making a huge comebacks because of aliveness which, was part of TMA in general before it disappeared

Reply]
No, they always WERE there. What has happened is you are now NOTICING them, where as before, you didn't

[1bad65]

Just go back to your cult and STFU.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am not in a cult.

How about you go back to Bullshido and stop trolling here.

[1bad65]

How the hell am I trolling? You are the one spouting insane drivel and not even reading anyone's posts. You are honestly just arguing to argue. I, on the other hand, have admitted when I was wrong.

You ever been to a BS Throwdown? You could show up at one and prove yourself to be right you know. ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why would I go to a Bullshido "Throwdown" when I could just complete in a local event and do the same thing, without dealing with all the dramatic dribble you guys generate.

[1bad65]

I figured you would decline. According to you these 'grapelers' are easy to deal with. Bet ya don't even break a sweat. :D

And FYI, I have never seen any drama at one. I believe JFS went to at least one TD.

[The Willow Sword]

"If you can not fight in the ring, you can not fight on the street."

Those are not independent skill sets. Once you have mastered the ring, you can expand into street techniques, and not opposite.


Absolutely and without a doubt an INCORRECT and NAIVE statement.


Peace,TWS



Just for the record, i am not in RD's camp although i will agree somewhat to his opinions, my camp is my own and i am just offering my buffalo nickels worth here.

[godzillakungfu]

Sanshou, Sanda Shuijiao, etc are making a huge comebacks because of aliveness which, was part of TMA in general before it disappeared

Reply]
No, they always WERE there. What has happened is you are now NOTICING them, where as before, you didn't
I never said they didn't exist. I said they are making a huge comeback. I noticed them before. You are now being disingenuous to try and win a debate. Ask anyone that had to travel thousands of miles to make these tournaments. Now you can find them on both coasts.

Contact was almost outlawed in kung fu schools due to frivolous lawsuits. Full conatct was replaced in many cases by point fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I figured you would decline. According to you these 'grapelers' are easy to deal with. Bet ya don't even break a sweat.

And FYI, I have never seen any drama at one. I believe JFS went to at least one TD.

Reply]
Again, If I want to test myself, I will enter a local fight.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Contact was almost outlawed in kung fu schools due to frivolous lawsuits. Full conatct was replaced in many cases by point fighting.

Reply]
Can you site these law suites? Or was it more "Fear of litigation"

As for the tournies, I can remember we used to have Kou Shou here every year...now it's gone and I would have to travel out of state to fight in one.

SO I think you are dealing more with perception than anything.

And if that stuff actually *IS* bigger now, it has nothing to do with MMA. It's becasue it's growing on it's own accord.

[Matt W.]

how do you explain the comments by the Training insrtuctor in the Human Weapon episode where he tells Jayson Chambers "THAT is what you get for trying to take it to the ground" after he got stabbed repededly for doing so?


There's no need to explain since, IIRC, he never said that. He railed on Chambers for not taking into account the knife. Chamber's argued by saying he didn't see the knife, which of course, doesn't matter in the end.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

He specifically said "Thats what you get for taking it to the ground".

He said it as Chambers was still down right after the Marine finished with him.

The other stuff happened later after the camera cut to the next scene.

[Knifefighter]

I dont base my techniques and skillsets for the ring, for me personally i do not want to get into a false sense of security by just training for a match.

There's the mindset that is the reason for MMA/BJJ guys thinking of you with disdain. A false sense of security by just training for the ring? Give me a friggin' break.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The ring has rules, and training for that does not account for all the variables that are intentionally kept out of ring fighting.

[godzillakungfu]

Contact was almost outlawed in kung fu schools due to frivolous lawsuits. Full conatct was replaced in many cases by point fighting.

Reply]
Can you site these law suites? Or was it more "Fear of litigation"

As for the tournies, I can remember we used to have Kou Shou here every year...now it's gone and I would have to travel out of state to fight in one.

SO I think you are dealing more with perception than anything.

And if that stuff actually *IS* bigger now, it has nothing to do with MMA. It's becasue it's growing on it's own accord.Your PERCEPTION.
It was SO popular you had to travel out of state. Thanks.

Yes, there were many lawsuits. Yes, their was also fear of litigation. Search the net, pick up Martial Arts business magazines from the 80's and 90's, track the marked increase in insurance rates for martial arts businesses, that wasn't caused by inflation.

[Knifefighter]

He specifically said "Thats what you get for taking it to the ground".

He said it as Chambers was still down right after the Marine finished with him.

The other stuff happened later after the camera cut to the next scene.

Take it to the ground, remain standing... doesn't matter. If you don't have knife awarenss and understanding of how to defend, you'll get gutted either way.

Taking the fight to the ground can be a big advantage if you have understanding and training in dealing with close quarter weapons. The ground gives you more options both in terms of control of a deployed weapon, as well as prevention of weapon deployment. Knowing how to use the advantage of the ground can be the difference between getting stabbed to death and surviving an edged weapon attack.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your PERCEPTION.
It was SO popular you had to travel out of state. Thanks.

Reply]
NO!!! I have to go out of state NOW. Back then it was held in Chicago 30 minutes from where I lived. So from here, there is less than before.

[Knifefighter]

I figured you would decline. According to you these 'grapelers' are easy to deal with. Bet ya don't even break a sweat.

And FYI, I have never seen any drama at one. I believe JFS went to at least one TD.

Reply]
Again, If I want to test myself, I will enter a local fight.

Bwahahaaaaa! We know that will never happen... unless it is a forms fight.

[Knifefighter]

I think if this was not the case, TCMA would be much more representative in the MMA arena.
'
The only reason they are not representative is that most of them get their a$$es handed to them the first time they compete and don't come back.

[godzillakungfu]

Your PERCEPTION.
It was SO popular you had to travel out of state. Thanks.

Reply]
NO!!! I have to go out of state NOW. Back then it was held in Chicago 30 minutes from where I lived. So from here, there is less than before.


As for the tournies, I can remember we used to have Kou Shou here every year...now it's gone and I would have to travel out of state to fight in one.Yes, you say it was popular. Yet, it went away and you had to go out of state. I said had because you don't compete anymore.

[Knifefighter]

The ring has rules, and training for that does not account for all the variables that are intentionally kept out of ring fighting.

Your training has more rules than the ring. Pulling all of your "deadly" techniques is even more restrictive (and more harmful to your ability to fight) than rules with forbid them but allow full contact of all other techniques.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The only reason they are not representative is that most of them get their a$$es handed to them the first time they compete and don't come back.

Reply]
Or maybe they go fight San Shou, or get into Pancration or Midwest Kick Boxing. NEVER thought of that did you!!

[1bad65]

The ring has rules, and training for that does not account for all the variables that are intentionally kept out of ring fighting.


As I said before, it was Anthony's RING/SPORT training that played a huge role in his fight with Rudy. Many of Rudy's strikes would have finished off alot of people who were not used to being hit. It was Anthony's ability to take hard shots and stay calm and keep coming, rather than panicking, that won him the fight. Taking a shot in a ring is about the same as taking a shot on the street. Your VHS/DVD training will not prepare you to take a punch, or defend a takedown, or teach you how to breathe in a fight, etc. 'Alive' training will. And while many TMAs refuse to train alive, EVERY BJJ/MMA gym I have been to trains alive.

[Knifefighter]

The only reason they are not representative is that most of them get their a$$es handed to them the first time they compete and don't come back.

Reply]
Or maybe they go fight San Shou, or get into Pancration or Midwest Kick Boxing. NEVER thought of that did you!!

So, basically, after complaining about restrictive rules, they go fight in events that have even MORE restrictive rules. Um... OK... bwahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!

[Matt W.]

He specifically said "Thats what you get for taking it to the ground".


I call BS. I watched the episode twice, and had he said that I would have noticed because I was watching particularly for what they had to say about groundfighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your training has more rules than the ring. Pulling all of your "deadly" techniques is even more restrictive (and more harmful to your ability to fight) than rules with forbid them but allow full contact of all other techniques.

Reply]
You can still account for multiple opponents, cater your training to knives being pulled, and set up scenarios where targets that are normall illegal in the ring are attacked (Like back of head).

A lower power attack to an illegal target is STILL better training than not going for it at all because you are training for the ring environment.. If you need it for real, you will naturally turn up the power, especially if you set up a bag to work the attack full power after you practice it with your partner at a lower power.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your VHS/DVD training will not prepare you to take a punch, or defend a takedown, or teach you how to breathe in a fight, etc

Reply]
I do not depend on VHS/DVD's to train for a fight. I actually work with people, and always have. Saying that just makes you look stupid.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I call BS. I watched the episode twice, and had he said that I would have noticed because I was watching particularly for what they had to say about groundfighting.

Reply]
They were not doing ground fighting at that time. They were in the woods doing some sort of ambush training...or were you up getting another beer at that point?

[Knifefighter]

A lower power attack to an illegal target is STILL better training than not going for it at all because you are training for the ring environment.. If you need it for real, you will naturally turn up the power, especially if you set up a bag to work the attack full power after you practice it with your partner at a lower power.

LOL... how do you practice hitting the bag in the back of head or the groin?

BTW, it's easier to change the target to an illegal one and be able to hit THAT at full power if you are used to hitting other targets on resisting opponents than it is to change the power of your hitting if you are not used to doing that against resisting opponents.
This is the key reason so many "deadly self-defense" guys get creamed when they go against sport fighters.

[Matt W.]

Man, you are dense. I watched the WHOLE SHOW paying particular mind to anything said about the ground. He did not say what you are claiming. I think you are making it up because it suits your otherwise ridiculous point.

Edited to add...

"Some sort of ambush training..."??? That was the final challenge, called The Last of the Mohicans.

Now, which of us was paying closer attention?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

LOL... how do you practice hitting the bag in the back of head or the groin?

Reply]
Take the strike you use for that, and hit the bag really hard with it....are you that helpless that you can't figure that out yourself?

BTW, it's easier to change the target to an illegal one and be able to hit THAT at full power if you are used to hitting other targets on resisting opponents than it is to change the power of your hitting if you are not used to doing that against resisting opponents.

Reply]
Not when you have gone out of your way to condition yourself to intentionally avoid those targets because of the rule set you are training for.

But the TCMA who is training to go for them will automatically seek them if an opening arises.

Also, MMA guys don't think to protect illegal targets because they never have to worry about getting hit there due to the rules protecting them

You fight like you train. If you TRAIN to avoid hitting illegal targets, you are not going to attack them.

If you TRAIN to not bother protecting those targets, you are not going to stop and think to do so in a no rules street environment either.


This is the key reason so many "deadly self-defense" guys get creamed when they go against sport fighters.


Reply]
No, it's because they over estimate thier abilities instead of starting small and working thier way up.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

"Some sort of ambush training..."??? That was the final challenge, called The Last of the Mohicans.

Now, which of us was paying closer attention?

Reply]
Yup, that was it. watch where Chamers goes down and the Marine knifes him a bunch of times. Go back and listen to what the Trainer says to him right after...

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ us debating with a complete moron like RD.

[phoenixrising]

I have taken a few months of BJJ in the past. A few months ago I was rolling with a 5X Wrestling Senior National Champion who has wrestled for 30+ years. After he took me down, landing on top of me, I tapped him with a guillotine. After getting up, he told me that they don't train to defend against those because they're against the rules. Now, he did go on to cream me twice in a row after that, but I think this empirical anecdote does support RDs point, i.e., that if you train a sport and ignore certain things because they're against the rules (anything from weapons to groin strikes) than they COULD BE a potential blind spot in a street fight because you reflexively ignore ignore them.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hmm, can't find fault with my argument, so you call me a moron?

[MSphinx]

Not when you have gone out of your way to condition yourself to intentionally avoid those targets because of the rule set you are training for.

But the TCMA who is training to go for them will automatically seek them if an opening arises.

Also, MMA guys don't think to protect illegal targets because they never have to worry about getting hit there due to the rules protecting them

You fight like you train. If you TRAIN to avoid hitting illegal targets, you are not going to attack them.

If you TRAIN to not bother protecting those targets, you are not going to stop and think to do so in a no rules street environment either.

Ok, using the two fights discussed in this thread... which fighter had the opportunity to bite and took it? Which fighter had the opportunity to knee his opponent in the back of the head and took it?

This is why knifefighter said:


BTW, it's easier to change the target to an illegal one and be able to hit THAT at full power if you are used to hitting other targets on resisting opponents than it is to change the power of your hitting if you are not used to doing that against resisting opponents.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its easier for a sport fighter to fight with INTENT than a non-fighter to fight with contact they are unaccustomed to.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You can fight with just as much intent in your practice no matter what you are training for.

Whether it be street, ring, or Iraq, you allways train much harder than the fight anyway, so your logic is pointless to bring up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can fight with just as much intent in your practice no matter what you are training for.

Whether it be street, ring, or Iraq, you allways train much harder than the fight anyway, so your logic is pointless to bring up.

My point was lost on you.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here, even those of us that actually agree with you on some points are having a hell of a time trying to get what you are saying, even more so considering what we have seen in this thread.

[1bad65]

Hmm, can't find fault with my argument, so you call me a moron?


No, he called you a moron because you are a moron.

[1bad65]

I say Rudy wins, 1st round by knockout.


Yeah, you really know how to predict the results of an actual fight.


You are clueless. Notice how all the people who you are disagreeing with now called it, yet you were way off on your prediction.

[Knifefighter]

You can fight with just as much intent in your practice no matter what you are training for.

Whether it be street, ring, or Iraq, you allways train much harder than the fight anyway, so your logic is pointless to bring up.

Then you must kill and maim a lot of training partners. Since your deadly kung fu allows you to kill and maim on the street, then you must be hitting to the back of the head and neck, gouging eyes, kicking groins, pulling fingers out of sockets, crushing tracheas, and breaking necks even more forcefully in practice. How many next-of-kin have sued you for damages so far?

Yes, you are a moron.

[Quasimo]

Just watched the Rudy/Anthony fight. Even though I despise traditional chinese bull**** (particularly crap like monkey whatever and wing chun), I have to grudgingly admit that Rudy put up a great fight. In fact, I think he looked better than Anthony out there. Rudy had good takedown defense; Anthony struggled and struggled to get that double. At the end, he didn't really get the double so much as topple onto Rudy. Meanwhile, Rudy was kicking Anthony's ass on the feet; a few more seconds and it would have been show over for him. Rudy even popped out a few kung fu style kicks. Looked to me that Athony was on the defensive most of the fight. Strange punching style though; more like a series of low roundhouses, but measured and accurate. It seemed like Anthony's knee is what ended it; sort a very sloppy GnP. Those types of knees aren't legal in most mma tournaments are they?

I give credit to both guys; good fight. Anthony has apparently done a massive amount of training since his earlier fight everyone's seen; good on him. I think Athony's weight advantage was very helpful here. Sure, Rudy needs to get some good ground game, but his takedown defense is actually pretty **** good. And it's not easy to maneuver out of bottom position with a guy that heavy on top. Anthony would have been better off with an upper body throw since he had so many opportunities to clinch and had the weight advantage.

Rudy, how about you fight someone around your weight lvl? I think you impressed alot of people who thought you were just a blowhard chump. You might still be a blowhard chump, but more respected now than before that's for sure.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Then you must kill and maim a lot of training partners. Since your deadly kung fu allows you to kill and maim on the street, then you must be hitting to the back of the head and neck, gouging eyes, kicking groins, pulling fingers out of sockets, crushing tracheas, and breaking necks even more forcefully in practice. How many next-of-kin have sued you for damages so far?

Yes, you are a moron.

Reply]
No dummy, you just target those areas and use light impacts so you don't harm your partners. You THEN go and work those strikes on the bag full power, so come real life you have the targeting ability, the setups and techniques, AND the power. It's the same as any other striking skill.

It STILL gets you much closer to using it in reality than a ring fighter who never works or defends against it at all becasue the rules protect him instead.

[Tomas]

This is the point in this thread when one stops talking and starts throwing down. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the point in this thread when one stops talking and starts throwing down. :)

There really is nothing as fun and benefitial for a MA of any system than throwing someone down on their head.

What? isn't that what you meant ?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just watched the Rudy/Anthony fight. Even though I despise traditional chinese bull**** (particularly crap like monkey whatever and wing chun), I have to grudgingly admit that Rudy put up a great fight.

Reply]
The funny thing is Rudy is a specialist in the Monkey style. His is a really old version of it too, not the modern stuff.

As for the fight results, I think two things were a big factor.

1. Rudy gassed, and was visibly showing it after the second break. He even commented to me that he needs to work on that.

2. Anthony has a really hard head and shot that would have knocked out another just didn't seem to phase him much. Rudy actually injured his hand beating Anthony in the head. He had it on ice as we last spoke.


Rudy actually commented to me that he he just could not believe Anthony could take shot like that and keep going.

As for the fight ender, Rudy told me he felt like his ear had been torn from a grind into the matt, so he tapped due to that. It is not, but he said he felt like it was and decided some show of bravado was not worth a serious ear injury.The knee to the head actually occurred after the tap....although, from that spot I think Anthony had him anyway. If Rudy had not taped before hand, I think Anthony would have just KO'd him with the Knee shots.

Rudy is 39, and has not actually fought in a long time. He has been injured with knee issues the last year or so, and finnaly went for surgery to fix it. He was only cleared to fully train 6 months or so ago, if not less time than that, so he is not even at his best here. You can see his knee is still not 100% by the way he is walking up at the stat of the fight.

What this is showing is someone who actually got trained by a good teacher, the way Kung Fu is MEANT to be trained, can actually fight with thier Kung Fu.

[Quasimo]

Just watched the Rudy/Anthony fight. Even though I despise traditional chinese bull**** (particularly crap like monkey whatever and wing chun), I have to grudgingly admit that Rudy put up a great fight.

Reply]
The funny thing is Rudy is a specialist in the Monkey style.

As for the fight results, I think two things were a big factor.

1. Rudy gassed, and was visibly showing it after the second break. He even commented to me that he needs to work on that.

2. Anthony has a really hard head and shot that would have knocked out another just didn't seem to phase him much. Rudy actually injured his hand beating Anthony in the head. He had it on ice as we last spoke.


Rudy actually commented to me that he he just could not believe Anthony could take shot like that and keep going.

Rudy told me he felt like his ear had been torn from a grind into the matt, so he tapped due to that. The knee to the head actually occurred after the tap....although, from that spot I think Anthony had him anyway. If Rudy had not taped before hand, I think Anthony would have just KO'd him with the Knee shots.

Interesting, I saw him tapping but looked like it was after the knee. Maybe the angle of the film. I could see pretty clearly that those shots were affecting Anthony. I think Anthony was stunned by how hard he hit. Looked like Anthony had much, much better conditioning than he previously had. F'ing great fight really; short but sweet. Good points to be had on both sides and close in the end.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Rudy even popped out a few kung fu style kicks

Reply]
Every thing Rudy did was pure Kung Fu...he does not know anything else. What you guys saw was what happens when someone is actually taught the old school way, instead of the modern forms factory way. The real issues here are that Rudy is older, and been nursing knee problems for the last couple years so he was really not at his best.

Interesting, I saw him tapping but looked like it was after the knee. Maybe the angle of the film. I could see pretty clearly that those shots were affecting Anthony. I think Anthony was stunned by how hard he hit.

Reply]
Yeah I think so too. He even commented on it.


Looked like Anthony had much, much better conditioning than he previously had.

Reply]
Hell yeah he does!! He's leaner, and much more mobile than before. There is a huge improvement over the last fight.

F'ing great fight really; short but sweet. Good points to be had on both sides and close in the end.

Reply]
Agreed. I cannot wait untill Rudy gets home, and uploads his video of this so we can see it from a different angle.

[Tomas]

Eargrind???? Who taps to an EARGRIND??? Serious injury to EAR??
You guys are crazy...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe he just gassed and that was his excuse, who knows...it does not change anything else though.